Plus, Linebacker is a perfect position for a player to have questionable integrity. If Jameis Winston was a LB, I'd view his raping and thieving as positives.
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2015 NFL Offseason/Draft Thread
- Thread starter bruin
- Start date
What was his broad jump and hand measurement though?
I understand that the scouts use these numbers to help them decide between guys that look similar on film, but I mean to me, you ain't watching enough film if you can't tell who is a better footbaw player, to me.
The only thing that matters at the combine is the underwear body pose, the interviews and the medical exams. If I was a GM, I would peace the fuck out as soon as those were done. I do the rest of my scouting attending games and watching them actually play football.
I understand that the scouts use these numbers to help them decide between guys that look similar on film, but I mean to me, you ain't watching enough film if you can't tell who is a better footbaw player, to me.
The only thing that matters at the combine is the underwear body pose, the interviews and the medical exams. If I was a GM, I would peace the fuck out as soon as those were done. I do the rest of my scouting attending games and watching them actually play football.
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
I will say, though, that as the game moves to more and more of a horizontal spread, you want faster and more rangy linebackers. I'm guessing most NFL teams spent more time with 3 WRs on the field than not. You'd ideally want a linebacker that is useful in coverage and that can get to the sidelines quickly. So I get that you'd shy away from a slow linebacker. But 40 times are fucking useless for figuring that out. If you are trying to have a linebacker cover anybody 40 yards down the field, you're screwed. You need a guy who can keep with a TE or slot guy for 10-20 yards.
The days of a 3 down run stopping linebacker are over. There's definitely still a place for a good run stopping linebacker in the NFL, but the best linebackers are the ones who can help stop the run on 1st and 2nd down, and then cover a TE on 3rd down. There are a reasonable amount of hybrid S/LBs in college that do this, and I'd expect that trend to follow more in the NFL.
The days of a 3 down run stopping linebacker are over. There's definitely still a place for a good run stopping linebacker in the NFL, but the best linebackers are the ones who can help stop the run on 1st and 2nd down, and then cover a TE on 3rd down. There are a reasonable amount of hybrid S/LBs in college that do this, and I'd expect that trend to follow more in the NFL.
I'm racking my brain trying to come up with someone, but who won the Underwear Olympics, didn't have the game film to back it up, and was a boss in the NFL?
Basically, has a Chris Conley type ever been drafted in the 1st round and gone on to great success?
-YTC
Basically, has a Chris Conley type ever been drafted in the 1st round and gone on to great success?
-YTC
Except for the fact that Paul Dawson was a beast on a team that played in the Big XII, a league where 75% of the teams are running a "horizontal spread."
-YTC
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
Nothing I said in there has anything to do with Dawson. Jesus, whitey.
I regret nothing.
-YTC
-YTC
Maybe James Harrison. I don't remember him doing shit in college. That could just be because I don't even know where he went and I pride myself in knowing where a ton of these guys played collegiately.
Here's exactly who I want to line up at QB for the Buffalo Bills:
"Athletic passer with the legs, mobility and vision to extend plays, pick up chunk yardage and move the sticks as a ballcarrier. Quick feet in his drops with the maneuverability to step up in the pocket, reset his eyes and deliver with a solid base. Gets the ball out quickly, easily changing his arm angles. Efficient with the ball and avoids high risk throws, understanding situations with high football intelligence and focus in crunch time. Tough as nails and passionate competitive drive, playing through pain."
Nothing about laser, rocket arm. Nothing about reading complex defenses. Nothing about "tight windows" or "throwing guys open."
If the Bills aren't going to do the right thing and sign Tebow, then give me the next best thing. Give me Jake Waters.
-YTC
"Athletic passer with the legs, mobility and vision to extend plays, pick up chunk yardage and move the sticks as a ballcarrier. Quick feet in his drops with the maneuverability to step up in the pocket, reset his eyes and deliver with a solid base. Gets the ball out quickly, easily changing his arm angles. Efficient with the ball and avoids high risk throws, understanding situations with high football intelligence and focus in crunch time. Tough as nails and passionate competitive drive, playing through pain."
Nothing about laser, rocket arm. Nothing about reading complex defenses. Nothing about "tight windows" or "throwing guys open."
If the Bills aren't going to do the right thing and sign Tebow, then give me the next best thing. Give me Jake Waters.
-YTC
Harrison went undrafted, doe. I'm talking about a guy who rockets up the draft boards based on his combine performance, but doesn't have great game film.
-YTC
I can confirm Brick and I loved Burfict, because we had a discussion about him. I said it was crazy he dropped below the 3rd or 4th, because even as a 2 down run stuffing LB he had value there. But to go completely undrafted? Absurd. Denver needed a MLB that year too, and they took Nate Irving or someone (Edit, they drafted Irving a year earlier).
There was some caller to a show who was talking about Winston vs mariouta. His question was does it compare to manning leaf .
He said "I was in favor of leaf at the time, which I've regretted ever since"
Wtf? You regretted it? You are joe in Scranton. You didn't make the pick. You had no say in it? What do your buddies rib you about it to this day that you guys were at a bar and you argued that leaf was the better prospect?
American sports fan needs to get the fuck over himself.
He regrets it. Stupid motherfucjer. Regret the fact that you are a dumbass in general, not that you favored one qb over another.
He said "I was in favor of leaf at the time, which I've regretted ever since"
Wtf? You regretted it? You are joe in Scranton. You didn't make the pick. You had no say in it? What do your buddies rib you about it to this day that you guys were at a bar and you argued that leaf was the better prospect?
American sports fan needs to get the fuck over himself.
He regrets it. Stupid motherfucjer. Regret the fact that you are a dumbass in general, not that you favored one qb over another.
Look here, fella. We were discussing the draft and team needs prior to the combine and I mentioned the Titans taking Burfict or Hightower with their fist pick. Then the combine happened and people said Burfict wouldn't be drafted. Obviously if I was the GM I would have waited and drafted him later in the 3rd or the 4th since the rest of my peers are tards, but in the grand scheme of things, who fucking cares where you draft someone if they turn out to be a beast? Yeah he's a great player for your team, but you drafted him in the 1st round instead of the 5th. You could have gotten Jake Locker in the 1st instead.
Probably so. I would reckon that it's harder to really have "unknown" players coming out of college in 2015. I had no freaking clue who Mike Mamula was prior to him blowing up at the combine.
-YTC
jdlikewhoa
Well-Known Member
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
Maybe Chris Johnson? He had a good senior season, but was below average before that.
Best one I've heard thus far, and even he had the benefit of a great senior season.
-YTC
The only reason I'd look at combine results at all is as a reflection of work ethic, so I'd be more interested in comparing the expectations of a single player (based on reported numbers) vs their results rahter than comparing them to other players. If a player shows up and outperforms expectations, you know they were training hard specifically for the combine. That's a good indicator of work ethic. If they show up fat and out of shape and don't perform as expected, then it is indicative of them not having great work ethic because they didn't train all that hard.
In short, it doesn't really matter to me that Marriota has a faster 40 time than Jameis Winston, because I've watched enough film to see that Marriota is a much better runner than Winston, but Winston is still a very mobile QB as well. The fact that Marriota showed up and ran a 40 time that met or exceeded expectations s showed that he took his training seriously. The fact that Winston showed up looking doughy and ran a slower 40 than Peyton Manning (when you know he plays faster) shows that he didn't really give a fuck about the combine.
I think taking that perspective allows you to place some value on the results, while not over valuing them either. If someone shows up and blows the combine expectations away like that one WR, you say "wow, he really put in a lot of effort!" That's a positive, but you don't move him above a player like Amari Cooper who had the game film/production either (who matched expectations, he looked fast in game he ran fast at the combine).
I wouldn't let either under/over performance sway my opinion of a player by more than a couple of rounds at most. If a player like Burfict grades as a 1st rounder pre-combine and he shows up fat and lazy and runs a slow time, I knock him to a 3rd or 4th round pick becuase he showed poor work ethic. Game film shows he's fast enough. Similarly, if some unknown trog grades as a 7th round or undrafted player, you don't move him up to a 1st rounder because he ran well.
In short, it doesn't really matter to me that Marriota has a faster 40 time than Jameis Winston, because I've watched enough film to see that Marriota is a much better runner than Winston, but Winston is still a very mobile QB as well. The fact that Marriota showed up and ran a 40 time that met or exceeded expectations s showed that he took his training seriously. The fact that Winston showed up looking doughy and ran a slower 40 than Peyton Manning (when you know he plays faster) shows that he didn't really give a fuck about the combine.
I think taking that perspective allows you to place some value on the results, while not over valuing them either. If someone shows up and blows the combine expectations away like that one WR, you say "wow, he really put in a lot of effort!" That's a positive, but you don't move him above a player like Amari Cooper who had the game film/production either (who matched expectations, he looked fast in game he ran fast at the combine).
I wouldn't let either under/over performance sway my opinion of a player by more than a couple of rounds at most. If a player like Burfict grades as a 1st rounder pre-combine and he shows up fat and lazy and runs a slow time, I knock him to a 3rd or 4th round pick becuase he showed poor work ethic. Game film shows he's fast enough. Similarly, if some unknown trog grades as a 7th round or undrafted player, you don't move him up to a 1st rounder because he ran well.
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Gooksta
Well-Known Member
Dumb as rocks
goblue96
Disney and Curling Expert
Tweener. Too light to play DE. No instincts to play OLB. A man without a position. Add in a "meh" attitude and it's a short career.
For another example of a successful player who saw their draft stock go way up because of measurable, I'd give you Demaryius Thomas (he didn't technically run at the combine because of a broken foot, but he did clock an electronically timed 4.38 40 at his pro day).
He was a WR at Georgia Tech during the Paul Johnson Flexbone and had one good season catching streak passes that were wide open because the teams were shitting their pants with 10 players in the box trying to stop the option. 1,150 yards but it came on only 46 catches. I mean that's still good production and all, but he wasn't exactly a polished pro WR prospect coming out of that system, his routes were atrocious, etc. The reason he jumped into the first round was his 4.38 40 yard dash at 6'3 225lbs.
He was a WR at Georgia Tech during the Paul Johnson Flexbone and had one good season catching streak passes that were wide open because the teams were shitting their pants with 10 players in the box trying to stop the option. 1,150 yards but it came on only 46 catches. I mean that's still good production and all, but he wasn't exactly a polished pro WR prospect coming out of that system, his routes were atrocious, etc. The reason he jumped into the first round was his 4.38 40 yard dash at 6'3 225lbs.
bruin
Well-Known Member
I must have missed when people on Flufftopia were comparing Burfict to Luke Kuechly in 2012.
Burfict was lazy, undisciplined and had some of the worst film you'll ever see at LB. But you saw the talent and man could he hit.
Best thing that could have happened to Vontaze was getting picked up by Mike Zimmer and Marvin Lewis.
Burfict was lazy, undisciplined and had some of the worst film you'll ever see at LB. But you saw the talent and man could he hit.
Best thing that could have happened to Vontaze was getting picked up by Mike Zimmer and Marvin Lewis.
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
I didn't really follow the combine or NFL at all at the time he was drafted. But I watched a fair amount of him at Georgia Tech. And I thought he was a great pick by the Broncos when he was originally drafted. I thought he was a great player in college. He's probably as good of an example as Chris Johnson, though.
Dr. Shats Basoon
Closed mouths don't get fed
you left out the part where he is a piece of shit scumbag who intentionally tries to hurt players over and over again
bruin
Well-Known Member
@Dr. Shats Basoon was the same way in HS at Centennial.
Yeah, I was probably stretching a bit, because he was really productive considering the type of offense he played in, but it was the best example I could come up with, lol. The point remains that almost all of his yards came on either wide open streak/corner passes or jump balls. Not exactly NFL ready type receiver, he was drafted as a physical prospect.
PSUEagle
Well-Known Member
Aldon Smith had like 6 sacks his last year in college and was drafted really high.
Richard Seymour I think had 1 sack his last year at UGA and he's a borderline HOFer.
FWIW, everyone points to Mike Mamula as the ultimate combine warrior, but he had 20 sacks his last year so it wasn't like he wasn't productive. Plus, that was twenty years ago when training for the combine was a new thing: you wouldn't see a jump like that today.
Richard Seymour I think had 1 sack his last year at UGA and he's a borderline HOFer.
FWIW, everyone points to Mike Mamula as the ultimate combine warrior, but he had 20 sacks his last year so it wasn't like he wasn't productive. Plus, that was twenty years ago when training for the combine was a new thing: you wouldn't see a jump like that today.
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
I'm guessing coaches get drawn into combine stats because that's the best information they have, in their minds. Not many coaches are going to review every prospect's film - that's what you have scouts for. I feel like most coaches hate stats, so they disregard (or at least discount) their college stats. So they have their scouts' subjective opinions and then these hard numbers. I could easily see falling into the trap of looking at these numbers and falling in love. If you think those numbers are the best information you have, then you'll fall in love with athletic freaks without any football skills.
Bottom line, football coaches and football people are idiots. It is mind blowing how many idiots there are in such a ridiculously lucrative and competitive business.
Bottom line, football coaches and football people are idiots. It is mind blowing how many idiots there are in such a ridiculously lucrative and competitive business.
Brick
Well-Known Member
it's boggling that stats, actual results from work on the field, are dismissed when combine numbers have no direct correlation at all to performance.
it is like the BMI index of footbaw.
i mean 125 people were drafted before elvis dumervil because he was 5'11". he broke the ncaa record for forced fumbles and broke freeney's sack record. what else could anybody possibly be looking for in a defensive end but getting sacks and forcing turnovers? herp.
it is like the BMI index of footbaw.
i mean 125 people were drafted before elvis dumervil because he was 5'11". he broke the ncaa record for forced fumbles and broke freeney's sack record. what else could anybody possibly be looking for in a defensive end but getting sacks and forcing turnovers? herp.
PSUEagle
Well-Known Member
Actually, coaches are the ones who disregard workouts/athletic measurements. Most only care if the guy is a "FOOTBAW PLAYA" who "MAKEZ PLAYZ." That's why guys like Jaiquann Jarrett (@R2D2 ) go in the 2nd round even though they can't move laterally and have the athletic ability to play in the NFL.
Throw Dontari Poe as another guy who didn't light up in college, BTW. He's still inconsistent, but considering he plays like 80% of his teams' snaps at his size he's had a remarkable career so far based on what he did at Memphis.
Throw Dontari Poe as another guy who didn't light up in college, BTW. He's still inconsistent, but considering he plays like 80% of his teams' snaps at his size he's had a remarkable career so far based on what he did at Memphis.
bruin
Well-Known Member
Poe best NT in footbaw. @GR8 2 B FL G8R
Poe was labeled a combine freak. Wasn't even first team all C-USA.
Poe was labeled a combine freak. Wasn't even first team all C-USA.
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GR8 2 B FL G8R
Well-Known Member
Yeah u rite
Arm reach. In the NFL the long arm tackles will just stone him. He will never get any sacks in the NFL.
This is just so typical Cleveland Browns. Best is seeing the news clip of them unveiling the NEWLOGO to media and everyone is just silent when they see it, and assume they fucked up and had the wrong picture on the easel. But really, no they fucked up and didnt change shit. Fucking dumb ass team.
Lightningwar
Administrator
I used to think the Raiders were the worst run team in the league. Cleveland has clearly stepped up to the plate and hit home run after home run over the last few years.
Lightningwar
Administrator
Kind of like how Michigan paid some group to tell them to hire Jim Harbaugh? 
