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Principles of Pro Style Offenses
- Thread starter JSU Zack
- Start date
Finally seeing improvements in my passing game. I switched to coordinator cam and I'm making strides with it. It's funny how changing the view... Actually makes me feel more protected in the pocket. I'm not rushing my throws and actually going through progressions.
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What are your thoughts on "the pass setting up the run" from west coast offense balanced attack perspective? How has this worked for you in practice?
I know for me defensively its going to be tough to open up the run by passing against unless your really pass dominant. I'll also usually be plus 1 in the run game most of the time regardless of playcalling. Now I say that not because I can't be run on, but I'm having trouble seeing this in practice.
I tend to do better either being run dominant or pass dominant. Mixing the two has giving me inconsistent results. What I'm trully trying to do is make my prostyle run game more explosive and efficient.
I know for me defensively its going to be tough to open up the run by passing against unless your really pass dominant. I'll also usually be plus 1 in the run game most of the time regardless of playcalling. Now I say that not because I can't be run on, but I'm having trouble seeing this in practice.
I tend to do better either being run dominant or pass dominant. Mixing the two has giving me inconsistent results. What I'm trully trying to do is make my prostyle run game more explosive and efficient.
I've never been an efficient enough passer to use the pass to consistently set up the run. I'm much more prone to doing it the other way around. I try to be balanced but I admittedly force too many stupid passes, so I always skew probably 60-40 run. And I always recruit mobile QBs so I can rely on them to run as well, so I can try to limit my exposure in the passing game. I have never successfully been super pass-dominant. On the PS2 games, I had some 55-45 pass-run ratios on occasion, but the quasi-antiquated way that I look at passing (I'll throw screens but I stay looking down field) impedes an efficient application of air raid.
Have you attempted to do an I-form heavy attack? It's been my experience going back to the PS2 days that a custom playbook built around a primarily-2-back philosophy doesn't need the same variety of form/set permutations as, for instance, a spread book, because there simply aren't as many varieties. What I mean is that, you can have some variety of ace and gun sets in your I formation book because the I form (and I offsets, even) take up so little playbook space...
I form is definitely one of my favorite formations. I had an I form triple option squad on PS2 one time. That was nice. It's such a prototypical balanced formation.
I find in NCAA 14 that Power O doesn't work as well from I form as from Pistol, but it's not as awful as some people make it out to be, in my opinion. I have found, in making playbooks that attempt a balance of multiple formations, that I'll sometimes forego I form in favor of 2 back pistol looks because of the increased variety of play call p possibilities.
I've also found myself trying to build all of my playbooks with a realistically limited combination of looks and styles. For instance, I've found a general philosophy in reading about people's development of run games that 'teams either run power or zone,' and there's certainly a way to build your running game strictly one way or another; even if you want to include QBrun stuff, you're just picking qb wrap and power instead of zone read. And they're going along with base/01 dive and counter out of the gun as opposed to inside zone/outside zone.
But I've also read a breakdown of LSU's running game from a few years back that shows that they ran - out of 21 and 22 personnel - both power and zone looks effectively. This may not be exactly standard, as they relied on the running game near-completely and so were bound to have a more sophisticated running game than their passing game, but I read a breakdown of Harbaugh's Stanford stuff going into Michigan and he similarly combined power and zone.
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Have you attempted to do an I-form heavy attack? It's been my experience going back to the PS2 days that a custom playbook built around a primarily-2-back philosophy doesn't need the same variety of form/set permutations as, for instance, a spread book, because there simply aren't as many varieties. What I mean is that, you can have some variety of ace and gun sets in your I formation book because the I form (and I offsets, even) take up so little playbook space...
I form is definitely one of my favorite formations. I had an I form triple option squad on PS2 one time. That was nice. It's such a prototypical balanced formation.
I find in NCAA 14 that Power O doesn't work as well from I form as from Pistol, but it's not as awful as some people make it out to be, in my opinion. I have found, in making playbooks that attempt a balance of multiple formations, that I'll sometimes forego I form in favor of 2 back pistol looks because of the increased variety of play call p possibilities.
I've also found myself trying to build all of my playbooks with a realistically limited combination of looks and styles. For instance, I've found a general philosophy in reading about people's development of run games that 'teams either run power or zone,' and there's certainly a way to build your running game strictly one way or another; even if you want to include QBrun stuff, you're just picking qb wrap and power instead of zone read. And they're going along with base/01 dive and counter out of the gun as opposed to inside zone/outside zone.
But I've also read a breakdown of LSU's running game from a few years back that shows that they ran - out of 21 and 22 personnel - both power and zone looks effectively. This may not be exactly standard, as they relied on the running game near-completely and so were bound to have a more sophisticated running game than their passing game, but I read a breakdown of Harbaugh's Stanford stuff going into Michigan and he similarly combined power and zone.
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Its something I played around with awhile in my years-ago dynasty where I ran a pro-style Denver/Texans (inside zone/ outside zone) offense. Basically I found that for whatever reason, when the TE is set to release block on those stretch playactions, he (the TE) will basically cut block the end-man-line-of scrimmage, so if you do the playaction fake but cut it at a certain point with a running QB, it really allows you to get outside the pocket, basically its a non-terrible Naked run.
I'm not sure how gamey it is, it seems to somewhat resemble real life plays, and doesn't seem that overpowered.
My theory of my own pro-style offense (before I always move away from it) is just inside/outside zone from as many formations as I can, and air raid plays for passing, and playaction off that run action. Inevitably I hate recruiting many TEs/FBs and also WRs so I just recruit simple stuff and shift to air raid.
I'm not sure how gamey it is, it seems to somewhat resemble real life plays, and doesn't seem that overpowered.
My theory of my own pro-style offense (before I always move away from it) is just inside/outside zone from as many formations as I can, and air raid plays for passing, and playaction off that run action. Inevitably I hate recruiting many TEs/FBs and also WRs so I just recruit simple stuff and shift to air raid.
Tbh when you play action it auto sucks in the d line from contain for moment. They then engage with olineman and since they they are now locked into an animation you can break contain pretty effectively. Canceling the PA gets the same results from dline but its quick so easier for qb to break contain.
If you ever played madden on ps3 online its 10 times worse. 90% of online players whole offense is based running playaction canceling then sprint to the sideline giving them 6 sec to throw every play.
If you ever played madden on ps3 online its 10 times worse. 90% of online players whole offense is based running playaction canceling then sprint to the sideline giving them 6 sec to throw every play.
Recently found this article on the use tight formations like the Iformation to get play-makers into space.
http://breakdownsports.blogspot.com...augh-michigan-power-O-pass-spread-option.html
It really got me interested how old prostyle iformaiton offenses went about offense and how you don't have to "spread" receivers to get their star players in space. Does anyone else have information on the playcalling strategy of tight formation offenses?
http://breakdownsports.blogspot.com...augh-michigan-power-O-pass-spread-option.html
It really got me interested how old prostyle iformaiton offenses went about offense and how you don't have to "spread" receivers to get their star players in space. Does anyone else have information on the playcalling strategy of tight formation offenses?
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I don't have info on play calling strategy... But I ran some I formation tight stuff. It was very effective and I put up big numbers running and passing against cpu and most users. I ran into issues against more high level users.. As I was not a good passer and I struggled against stacked boxes that forced me to pass. I might go back to some of that stuff now.. since I've improved on my passing.
https://web.archive.org/web/2012052...ing-and-tom-moores-indianapolis-colts-offense
This is a nice read from smartfootball on The Indianapolis Colts offense under Peyton Manning and Tom Moore. I'm running a under center offense based off this scheme currently. I'm having a lot of fun recreating this right now... I'm trying to keep it as close to it as I can in game. I've never been a person that likes to run a play or plays multiple times in one game... But I like the simplicity of this scheme.
This is a nice read from smartfootball on The Indianapolis Colts offense under Peyton Manning and Tom Moore. I'm running a under center offense based off this scheme currently. I'm having a lot of fun recreating this right now... I'm trying to keep it as close to it as I can in game. I've never been a person that likes to run a play or plays multiple times in one game... But I like the simplicity of this scheme.
I've played seven games now with Tom Moore's offensive scheme.... four cpu and three users. I'm 6-1 since adopting this scheme. The lone loss came in my very second game vs a user. I got down early 17-0 and came back and tied it at 24-24 before losing on a FG with 3 secs remaining. In two user games I got down 17-0 which is crazy... I was able to come back and win one. The other user game was a 57-3 blow out in which I ran the ball the entire second half. In the loss to the second user I threw 3 int's in the first half 0 in second. Against next user I threw 4 in first half and again 0 in second half. The next user I had 0 int's and if not for 1 drop... I would have been perfect.
My issue with picks have been a combination of bad decisions and bad throws... I'm still learning how to place the ball exactly where I want it. I've tried to force big plays too often and it's gotten me in trouble. In the last user game... I ran the scheme to near perfection. The big plays are there... I just have to be more patient and set them up better.
My issue with picks have been a combination of bad decisions and bad throws... I'm still learning how to place the ball exactly where I want it. I've tried to force big plays too often and it's gotten me in trouble. In the last user game... I ran the scheme to near perfection. The big plays are there... I just have to be more patient and set them up better.
Played a cpu game a bit earlier and my starting QB threw 9 TD's and 1 Int. My back up came in and threw another 2 with a pick. In each case the Int came again from trying to force a big play or quick score. I'm 100% under center at this point. In another dyn in four games (3 cpu 1 user) I've been sacked 24 times. The sliders have pass protection at 15 which makes playing UC HELL!!!
I haven't been sacked much by users.. 98% of my sacks are vs cpu. In the dyn I spoke of... FCS Southwest sacked me 8 times. I couldn't finish my auto drop in most cases... On play action I had to cancel auto drop and manually sprint from behind center. My line is experienced and upperclassmen but sliders make them useless in pass protection. I actually kept 7 in max protection on several pass attempts against a 3 man rush... I still was sacked before I could finish my drop back. With the exception of mirrored routes from time to time from slider setting... I've still been able to shred the cpu.
I haven't been sacked much by users.. 98% of my sacks are vs cpu. In the dyn I spoke of... FCS Southwest sacked me 8 times. I couldn't finish my auto drop in most cases... On play action I had to cancel auto drop and manually sprint from behind center. My line is experienced and upperclassmen but sliders make them useless in pass protection. I actually kept 7 in max protection on several pass attempts against a 3 man rush... I still was sacked before I could finish my drop back. With the exception of mirrored routes from time to time from slider setting... I've still been able to shred the cpu.
The more I play this game... The more I realize I've been doing wrong all these yrs!
I'm the Tim Tebow of EA sports NCAA football...
Finally figured out why I can't make certain throws... I have a hitch in my passing mechanics. lol I've developed a bad habit of passing ass backwards... I'm doing the reverse of what I should be doing. I lead the pass in the opposite direction I actually intend for it to go. I didn't catch it until after playing @bruin228 tonight in Powerhouse dyn. Now I'm trying to correct the hitch by playing with left handed qb's. I have a 3rd string QB who's a lefty... I started playing with him and passes feel more natural. Now I have to figure out how to make passes that I'd learned backwards the correct way.
I'm the Tim Tebow of EA sports NCAA football...
Finally figured out why I can't make certain throws... I have a hitch in my passing mechanics. lol I've developed a bad habit of passing ass backwards... I'm doing the reverse of what I should be doing. I lead the pass in the opposite direction I actually intend for it to go. I didn't catch it until after playing @bruin228 tonight in Powerhouse dyn. Now I'm trying to correct the hitch by playing with left handed qb's. I have a 3rd string QB who's a lefty... I started playing with him and passes feel more natural. Now I have to figure out how to make passes that I'd learned backwards the correct way.
The more I play this game... The more I realize I've been doing wrong all these yrs!
I'm the Tim Tebow of EA sports NCAA football...
Finally figured out why I can't make certain throws... I have a hitch in my passing mechanics. lol I've developed a bad habit of passing ass backwards... I'm doing the reverse of what I should be doing. I lead the pass in the opposite direction I actually intend for it to go. I didn't catch it until after playing @bruin228 tonight in Powerhouse dyn. Now I'm trying to correct the hitch by playing with left handed qb's. I have a 3rd string QB who's a lefty... I started playing with him and passes feel more natural. Now I have to figure out how to make passes that I'd learned backwards the correct way.
I'm the Tim Tebow of EA sports NCAA football...
Finally figured out why I can't make certain throws... I have a hitch in my passing mechanics. lol I've developed a bad habit of passing ass backwards... I'm doing the reverse of what I should be doing. I lead the pass in the opposite direction I actually intend for it to go. I didn't catch it until after playing @bruin228 tonight in Powerhouse dyn. Now I'm trying to correct the hitch by playing with left handed qb's. I have a 3rd string QB who's a lefty... I started playing with him and passes feel more natural. Now I have to figure out how to make passes that I'd learned backwards the correct way.
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When I started playing NCAA on PS2... I strictly ran option. So when I came to Xbox... I stuck with it, since that's what I knew. The bad about running option was... passing was too easy! It didn't require any touch or precision passing. The receiver you were throwing to was usually wide open... or uncovered. Once they started precision passing and throwing receivers open... You had to start pass leading. Since you had to now lead the pass... I over compensated. If I wanted to throw a deep corner route to the right... I tilted the stick at a sharp angle right.
To me it made sense... But the actual play mechanics is to lead up on the stick (12' o clock) with a slight tilt left or right to get the desired effect. Running option allowed me to still be effective since the pass was usually unexpected. In 2012 EA revamped the Option Run play book... I haven't run option since. I knew that play book inside out... I didn't need to read defenses or coverage's etc... I could basically do a Paul Johnson... see your formation and know instantly how to attack it. So with NCAA 12 I had to start running other offenses... my passing has suffered greatly! Up until last night I was still using the old PS2 bad habit of passing. I'd adjusted it a bit but was throwing outside when I intended to throw inside and vice versa. Basically... a lot of my completions where luck! To add to that.. the (THP) Throwing power & (THA) Throwing accuracy of your QB makes a bigger difference than I realized. Not sure how true this is... but it seems on the money. If your QB's THP is less than 83... you will have a difficult time throwing over defenders. That's why you see the superman LB's animation where they jump up and pick a pass going 20 yds down field... but they're only 5yds off LOS. Or your receiver has a DB beat by a few yds... but when you throw it. The defender magically intercepts the pass. I've come to realize that THP matters much more than accuracy IMO. A QB with 91 thp and 70 tha can be more accurate than a QB with 85 THP and 95 THA.
The stronger the arm the more things you can do like throwing into tight spots and throwing over a DB's head.
Although I've done so with some success... I don't think running this scheme strictly from under center is a good Idea. It can be done... but it's difficult against users. My biggest issue is actually why I started running the scheme... It's simplicity. I've never liked running plays multiple times a game.
I guess I'm going to have to add some wrinkles to change my feelings on that...
Actually... In a couple of my dynasties. I'm lacking integral pieces to really run it correctly. I'm either lacking depth at receiver... or my QB has below avg arm strength. The latter being the case in at least two. I also have receivers with poor release and route running.. that isn't helping.
I guess I'm going to have to add some wrinkles to change my feelings on that...
Actually... In a couple of my dynasties. I'm lacking integral pieces to really run it correctly. I'm either lacking depth at receiver... or my QB has below avg arm strength. The latter being the case in at least two. I also have receivers with poor release and route running.. that isn't helping.
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I'm an option guy and pass ok. I have learned that button press pressure makes a big difference over leading a WR.... Like throwing seams down the hash marks takes slight pressure but not a lot without leading. The ball will cruise right over the defenders head. For the life of me I can't figure out how to throw a bubble screen. I always get bad animations after the catch and get tackled for little gain. I'm still learning what kind of leads to use also and that's why I asked what you meant.
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lolI myself have had the same problem with bubble, HB, and WR/FL screens. Try changing your QB's to left hand... It's worked for me. I just played a game and threw several bubble, HB, and Wr screens and had only one of the bad animations. Of the 6 or 7 I threw... Only one went for no gain and the one bad animation lost 3 yds.
You're right about the button press...
Like I stated... my throwing was totally backwards on some passes... so changing my QB's has helped instantly.
:grin
I myself have had the same problem with bubble, HB, and WR/FL screens. Try changing your QB's to left hand... It's worked for me. I just played a game and threw several bubble, HB, and Wr screens and had only one of the bad animations. Of the 6 or 7 I threw... Only one went for no gain and the one bad animation lost 3 yds.
You're right about the button press...
Like I stated... my throwing was totally backwards on some passes... so changing my QB's has helped instantly.
I myself have had the same problem with bubble, HB, and WR/FL screens. Try changing your QB's to left hand... It's worked for me. I just played a game and threw several bubble, HB, and Wr screens and had only one of the bad animations. Of the 6 or 7 I threw... Only one went for no gain and the one bad animation lost 3 yds.
You're right about the button press...
Like I stated... my throwing was totally backwards on some passes... so changing my QB's has helped instantly.
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What I'm noticing is.. Changing the throwing hand of my QB has opened up more passing options for me. What I mean by that is... I had to run certain pass plays always to the boundary or to a particular side of the field.
Because of the way I passed... it made certain throws very difficult. Not understanding what I was doing wrong caused me to use the wrong type of touch on passes.
Again, I was over compensating... The seam tip is very helpful to me. I've always fired that pass with either a flick up on the stick or at an angle. I couldn't understand why I wasn't having more success with that pass.
Because of the way I passed... it made certain throws very difficult. Not understanding what I was doing wrong caused me to use the wrong type of touch on passes.
Again, I was over compensating... The seam tip is very helpful to me. I've always fired that pass with either a flick up on the stick or at an angle. I couldn't understand why I wasn't having more success with that pass.
Fixed some of the issues with the Tom Moore scheme... added some gun formations and set up my audibles. Trying to keep it as close to real life as possible.. I can now do like Peyton did and audible to shotgun or from gun to under center. Also realized that I could use some hot routes to get desired looks.
I'm wondering if I should add any pistol to it?
I'm wondering if I should add any pistol to it?
Damn... Can't believe it's taken me so many yrs to figure out... not every pass requires you to pass lead.
I've been using lead on every pass I attempted since it's been in the game... I now see why I had so many issues with passes up the seams and deep balls. Also explains why I've had drags and sideline pass problems as well. I've really gotten accustomed to the left hand Qb's... do I dare change them back?
Hmmm...
I've been using lead on every pass I attempted since it's been in the game... I now see why I had so many issues with passes up the seams and deep balls. Also explains why I've had drags and sideline pass problems as well. I've really gotten accustomed to the left hand Qb's... do I dare change them back?
Hmmm...
Fixed some of the issues with the Tom Moore scheme... added some gun formations and set up my audibles. Trying to keep it as close to real life as possible.. I can now do like Peyton did and audible to shotgun or from gun to under center. Also realized that I could use some hot routes to get desired looks.
I'm wondering if I should add any pistol to it?
I'm wondering if I should add any pistol to it?
Well...
There are certain looks I'm looking for... If I see two high safeties... I'll audible from under center to shotgun to run some of my HB dives. Or If I see single high... I'd audible from shotgun to under center to go play action. Also... going from shotgun to under center allows me to attack tendencies of the defense. A lot of players will attack or stack their defense to the RB side if I'm in shotgun. When I go under center they have to change their looks... So I'm dictating to them what defense I want to see.
There are certain looks I'm looking for... If I see two high safeties... I'll audible from under center to shotgun to run some of my HB dives. Or If I see single high... I'd audible from shotgun to under center to go play action. Also... going from shotgun to under center allows me to attack tendencies of the defense. A lot of players will attack or stack their defense to the RB side if I'm in shotgun. When I go under center they have to change their looks... So I'm dictating to them what defense I want to see.
The biggest problem for my scheme was to get out of my comfort zone. I had formations that I was way too loyal to! I stuck to those formations and plays no matter how many times they failed. I was convinced I was doing something wrong. Some formations might be great for passing but weak for running.. or vice versa. I struggled with the run and figured I was still doing something wrong. I was also too loyal to 11 personnel... I had every 11 personnel formation in my PB. Although... many attacked the exact same areas. So I was showing tendencies of my own and not knowing it. I feel now it's more difficult to pick up on my tendencies and I'm more multiple on offense. I'm going to give a lot of different looks and I'm looking to make my opponent defend the entire field.
Idk i go back and forth with tendencies, especially in video game world or any football where you dont have a great scouting report. I mean if you have a great play or attack a certain area do you not keep attacking it just because your opponent knows its coming(thinking out loud here). I mean does navy stop running triple because people know its coming? I try not to get in this mindset where football is a rock-paper-scissors guessing game. To me it shouldn't matter if they know its coming because your running your best plays with your best players. If the plays and players are good enough it shouldn't matter if they know its coming imo. They should have to do something unsound to stop then you attack their unsound play.
To me thats part of what the colts were about. You knew marvin was going to on the same side every play of every game all season. Still can't stop it.
I myself don't like running the same play over and over... I see people that will run hitch or curl all game without hesitation if you let them. That's cheesy to me because the cpu will never adjust... and to stop it yourself opens up other areas. I can see coming back to a play a couple of times over the course of a game... but not just keep running it rinse and repeat.
But that's just my opinion.
But that's just my opinion.
I myself don't like running the same play over and over... I see people that will run hitch or curl all game without hesitation if you let them. That's cheesy to me because the cpu will never adjust... and to stop it yourself opens up other areas. I can see coming back to a play a couple of times over the course of a game... but not just keep running it rinse and repeat.
But that's just my opinion.
But that's just my opinion.
In my previous post I was referring to the tendency of trying to out guess an opponent vs doing what you do best.
I don't really try to out guess my opponents... I tend to do what you described. I try to run similar concepts attacking the same areas and mixing in the run. Once they get a bit antsy and cheat one way or another... I usually go overtop. With singleback it's kinda easy to see when someone is coming after you. I try to do what I do best... but I get myself in trouble sometimes... I look for the big play too often.
