Restarting/Increasing Immersion

[NML]

First off, consider this a proposal to tear it down and build it back up. That's why there's a poll. I give a few options because I also want this to be a thread where we can discussing ways to improve the league even if this isn't the route to do it. Also, to be clear, by restarting the league, I mean creating a new league (similar to the move between UBL and WBL).

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I'm going to start with a fairly blanket statement I think we can all agree with, and that is that the league's overall immersion is low - arguably at an all time low. As of last night, four owners hadn't simmed in over a week, and three others hadn't within a few days. That seems low to me (but maybe it isn't).

Moreso, it appears that several owners are more or less "going through the motions." I have no basis for this other than impressions people give, and again, maybe I'm wrong with this assumption. But I don't think I am.

And I also think that everyone agrees that that isn't how we want the league to be.

So my proposal is to blow it up and start it again.

First off - I do admit that I think some people are simply over the game. We've had a league for a long time now, since I was in college, and I'm married with my third kid almost here. That's a long commitment for a video game. For these people, it simply won't matter. No change or changes is going to bring them back into it.

I also think we have a second group of people who this proposal helps significantly. For whatever reason, they've simply become bored of the league. Maybe it's their team, their players, the league - whatever. I think this group would be reinvigorated by a new team and new league. I will concede that this group may want a new league every few years and could be ur classic MILLENNIAL who always think the grass is greener.

Finally, there's a third group. These people enjoy the team building and the league itself and will probably always be good owners (though ur definition of "good" may vary). They may follow along with this for the good of the league, or they may not see the point - or maybe they love their team and don't want to start over.

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I'm unsure where everyone falls. I'd put myself in group three but willing to start over for the league. I do miss the days of old - that could just be nostalgia, but it seems like we had a very active group back then. The forums especially were way more active.

I think the WBL did a lot of things right that we did wrong in the UBL - everyone having the same market factors especially - but clearly things have happened that we could've done better, or we wouldn't find ourselves in this position. Or maybe you think the league is fine, that's an option too.

If we were to restart the league, we'd need to discuss a lot of things. I don't want to start on that right now. That's why "possibly" is an option. Cross that bridge when we get there.

Last thing from me - if you vote "this wouldn't solve the issues" please post if you have a suggestion or if you think the league is just done.

 

[TonyGin&Juice]

I don't think this league can start over and survive even though it should. At this point most GMs are pretty bored and pretty much everyone is checked out. Could be that it's summer or it could be we've being doing this too long but I've noticed the immersion being pretty low in general. Everyone dying last season is probably the culprit for that for me but I'm just not excited about setting lineups for a bunch of bums to get shut out by FAX.

Take a look at the SL standings and, shocker, 75% of the top four are the usual suspects. I'm sure someone will show up and bet me snoring 25 pounds of Angel Dust in two hours that won't be the case in five seasons but I don't see that happening with the way things are now. Does anyone see FAX, NDR, and/or KAB not being in the playoffs in the foreseeable future in the SL?

Not to pull a @Yankee151 but IFA is really broken and shows no signs of ever being fixed. Allowing the rich teams to buy up the IFA and FA talent while also gaming contracts for IFA years has led to this and it isn't changing. I've acquired a lot of players in IFA but I don't think I've ever spent more than $20M, even with the tax. Does that happen when LV, FAX, KAB, and NDR are in the IFA mix? Would a flat max of a $5M pool fix this? Maybe. I just don't see how any of the newer teams (read: takeovers) can compete long term with the rich teams when it comes to acquiring talent outside of the draft.

All of that said I really like my team and my farm but I just don't see how we'll ever have more than a Royals style rise and fall process. The fan loyalty never made it to EXTREME (or even increased ) so one bad season leads to $20M in budget loss for teams like us. That's not true for the Dodgers of this league and that's what I think is a very serious problem. Call me crazy but I don't think the fan loyalty component has been working for the past five plus seasons.

 

[NML]

Call me crazy but I don't think the fan loyalty component has been working for the past five plus seasons.

It hasn't. One of the big issues with our first league (the UBL) was people had varying market sizes and fan loyalty. The climb up the ladder was much tougher back then. So everyone has the same for that now and it doesn't fluctuate.

 

[TonyGin&Juice]

Wait, the fan loyalty doesn't change? That's not what the Os told me when I asked about that. In that case that, to me, seems like an unfair advantage, to me.

 

[NML]

Fan loyalty and fan interest are two different things. Loyalty doesn't change - at least I'm pretty sure it doesn't - but interest does.

 

[TonyGin&Juice]

Unless it's turned off I don't see how Fan Loyalty doesn't help drive ur budget in some way shape or form.

 

[NML]

Well it does drive it in the sense that it affects how quickly/slowly your interest goes up/down.

We just all have the same speed for that

 

[Mr. Radpants]

The league is fine to me to me. I don't export when I tank.

Starting the Spacetopia league would kill the Spacetopia shtick also.

 

[Orlando]

Export frequency is normal.

Immersion is mature, but probably pretty much the same.

We have a variety of GMs, when the loud or prolific posters step away for a minute things get quiet. That doesn't mean there aren't GMs playing.

Fan loyalty changes, but it's something that moves much slower like market size.

I don't think restarting changes anything that can't otherwise be fixed other than creating a smaller league and removing current commishes. Maybe that is your goal.

Idk it's OOTP.

 

[Travis7401]

Fuck you.

Also, why is NDR always an example of IFA being broken?

1. I havent had money to make a big dip in a decade. IFA is a rebuilding mans game, before huge contacts limit ur flexibility.

2. Please show me the benefits of the hundreds of millions I spent... a 4th OF and a couple of not-even a whatever 2 WAR guys? Would have been better off signing one year FAs, which is what I do now.

3. The only thing that could level the playing field is to take some of Woolys sperger iq and give it to you whiners.

 

[NML]

How hard is it to vote people

 

[TonyGin&Juice]

A restart wouldn't happen unless you want a league of 6-8 teams instead of the current 18. Fewer teams would just cause more bullshit and fuckstickery instead of less. More teams is a disaster based on the other leagues I've tried to play in only to quit after a season or two.

Fuck you.

Also, why is NDR always an example of IFA being broken?

1. I havent had money to make a big dip in a decade. IFA is a rebuilding mans game, before huge contacts limit ur flexibility.

2. Please show me the benefits of the hundreds of millions I spent... a 4th OF and a couple of not-even a whatever 2 WAR guys? Would have been better off signing one year FAs, which is what I do now.

3. The only thing that could level the playing field is to take some of Woolys sperger iq and give it to you whiners.

I would have used BUF since they followed ur lead and spent $50M on a SS that's stuck on a bad team with no farm depth but @Lloyd Carr is probably somewhere in DC looking for the real reason Seth Rich died or I would have @ed him instead. Also, lol @ u for pretending like spending hundreds of millions of dollars in IFA is something a rebuilding team can do. Ur right that the "no such thing as a bad one year FA" is a much better strategy than blowing millions on 16 year shitheads that never amount to anything other than bench players and relievers at best or farmhands and cautionary tale at worst.

 

[NML]

I don't think restarting changes anything that can't otherwise be fixed other than creating a smaller league and removing current commishes. Maybe that is your goal

Neither of these is my goal.

I feel like I outlined what my goal is pretty clearly - to have a more immersed league.

Maybe that's simply not possible. As I said, seems like we have a handful of owners just going through the motions. As an example, Osick, Travis, and OU all use to provide a bunch of interesting material for the league. They barely post anymore.

Also like I said, it may not be possible to get back to where we were

 

[kingssc]

I'd probably quit if things were restarted. Haven't spent my entire time in the league working on a rebuild of the loathsome people and minor league system Schwaun left me to just to have it stripped away right as my team is starting to contend.

 

[TonyGin&Juice]

I'd probably quit if things were restarted. Haven't spent my entire time in the league working on a rebuild of the loathsome people and minor league system Schwaun left me to just to have it stripped away right as my team is starting to contend.

I'm going on record here to apologize for getting so heated that the idea of a restart started getting any traction. Right now my team is trash but its of my own making because I am a TROG that handed out long, bad contract to BUMS. That said, I'm fine with us being bad for another 3-4 seasons while my past sins of stupidity go away. Starting over this league would be the end of OOTP for me, which isn't something I'm keen on.

My main beef with these pre-ARB extensions is that they would likely never happen in MLB. Sure there are the Evan Dohgorias and Sal Perezs but those are the exception and not the rule. Both of those guys also got mega extensions later on, which wouldn't happen in OOTP since most of these guys die within six WBL seasons. Again, I'm A TROG for continuing to think OOTP should operate like MLB but that's where most of my heartburn originates.

Let's all get real though - @jdlikewhoa being MIA is what's really bringing the immersion down. Same for the lack of @doh trades.

 

[NML]

Six owners have posted but four votes

I'm trying to get an idea if this is something worth considering. If you don't like it then vote and we can move on

 

[Orlando]

Neither of these is my goal.

I feel like I outlined what my goal is pretty clearly - to have a more immersed league.

Maybe that's simply not possible. As I said, seems like we have a handful of owners just going through the motions. As an example, Osick, Travis, and OU all use to provide a bunch of interesting material for the league. They barely post anymore.

Also like I said, it may not be possible to get back to where we were

You don't think it's coincidence that two of those people are commishes? If you want the immersion of myself, osick and OU it is definitely not possible. @OU11 has been done for a while, but has been somewhat engaged with his rebuild. He sticks around because he isn't an asshole. @osick87 gets so much shit any time he makes a mistake. I am shocked he hasn't left. Which leaves me. For some reason I try to stay active. I like watching other teams build and do well. I actually like the owners in the league, even wooly


@Travis7401 immersion is seasonal. The weather is good right now. Wait for winter.

 

[Karl Hungus]

I voted against a restart. I'd probably move on if that happened.


People don't have a reason to sim regularly if they are tanking or are just out of the playoff picture. It's always been that way and it always will be.

 

[NML]

You don't think it's coincidence that two of those people are commishes? If you want the immersion of myself, osick and OU it is definitely not possible. @OU11 has been done for a while, but has been somewhat engaged with his rebuild. He sticks around because he isn't an asshole. @osick87 gets so much shit any time he makes a mistake. I am shocked he hasn't left. Which leaves me. For some reason I try to stay active. I like watching other teams build and do well. I actually like the owners in the league, even wooly

@Travis7401 immersion is seasonal. The weather is good right now. Wait for winter.

That's fair.

I think the O's would be better off if they simply simmed. I realize that's a ton of work and appreciate that it gets done. I don't see why you should also be burden by making executive decisions.

That's ultimately where the anger towards others come in, I think. That and shit posting about killing players.

 

[Travis7401]

Six owners have posted but four votes

I'm trying to get an idea if this is something worth considering. If you don't like it then vote and we can move on

You didn't make "Fuck NML" an option, so consider it a write in vote!

Also, I'm on mobile from my 2010 phone and it can't see a poll

 

[NML]

You didn't make "Fuck NML" an option, so consider it a write in vote!

Also, I'm on mobile from my 2010 phone and it can't see a poll

You and my two year old have the same reaction when I try to have a civilized conversation with you

 

[Mr. Radpants]

This thread has my

IMMERSION DECREASING

 

[Orlando]

That's fair.

I think the O's would be better off if they simply simmed. I realize that's a ton of work and appreciate that it gets done. I don't see why you should also be burden by making executive decisions.

That's ultimately where the anger towards others come in, I think. That and shit posting about killing players.

Agree to disagree there.

 

[kella]

I voted

 

[Soonerfan09]

I voted to keep the league as it is. I think the immersion is pretty good (look at the trade deadline), but I'm sure it could get better. Hopefully it picks up this offseason.

 

[NML]

To be honest, I'm glad I'm the only one who seems to want it. Maybe I'm just nostalgic about the good ole days

 

[OU11]

Don't @ me in this fuckshit. We restarted the UBL because it was broke not to bring immersion. To get immersion higher you need to get Wooly in the commish role

 

[NML]

One could argue the league is broke now with the $120m budget gap between the top and the bottom

 

[OU11]

not really, its hard to get it closer than that without causing some major issues for the poors to be able to transition up

 

[OU11]

but before you take my word for it, run multiple 20-30 year sims with different financial settings to see if that is possible now. some things have been added or changed

 

[NML]

Send me the adderall babby

 

[OU11]

get ur own

 

[Orlando]

One could argue the league is broke now with the $120m budget gap between the top and the bottom

Was the purpose of our league to be completely socialist? If so, it's broken. I don't think that was the case, although there were lots of arguments about this.

 

[OU11]

the purpose was to be stable for a 50-60 year run, so it's fine. i never tried to make it socialist and never would have entertained such nonsense

 

[Orlando]

I agree with you and I don't think the budget variance is that big of an issue. I suppose we could equalize fan loyalty, although I don't think it would make a huge difference. Fans are still fickle and if you are bad a couple seasons they stop showing up.

 

[NML]

Was the purpose of our league to be completely socialist? If so, it's broken. I don't think that was the case, although there were lots of arguments about this.

It's not that it needs to be socialist - but maybe 2.5 times the budget size is too big of a gap

 

[fignuts]

Am on tapanand. Thus unable to vote.

But one thing I would like to propose is either balanced schedules or a one league schedule. Dunno if it's feasible for either with 162G/18T doe. Mayhaps a 180G schedule along with increasing ur active ML roster to 26 guys? Just spitballing at the moment here.

Also, maybe not allow alternating years for salary amounts to circumvent IFA tax obligations. The flat 5M or 10M is another option.

 

[Orlando]

It's not that it needs to be socialist - but maybe 2.5 times the budget size is too big of a gap

That's the fault of owners and their tactics though. We can't control every team. FWIW, if you want to compare everything to real life the Dodgers opening day payroll was $240m+ and the Brewers was $63m. Funny enough, both are in first place.

Edit: sorry the Brewers have dropped to second.

 

[doh]

oh the once every 3-4 seasons NML thread that tries to torpedo the league... it's been a few years.

 

[TonyGin&Juice]

That's the fault of owners and their tactics though. We can't control every team. FWIW, if you want to compare everything to real life the Dodgers opening day payroll was $240m+ and the Brewers was $63m. Funny enough, both are in first place.

Edit: sorry the Brewers have dropped to second.

While I get ur point with this the difference in the number of wins is significant.

 

[NML]

Not trying to torpedo anything. Just having a conversation

That's the fault of owners and their tactics though. We can't control every team. FWIW, if you want to compare everything to real life the Dodgers opening day payroll was $240m+ and the Brewers was $63m. Funny enough, both are in first place.

Edit: sorry the Brewers have dropped to second.

I agree that the owners play a part - the biggest part - in how this plays out. But at some point the hill is too big to climb.

This isn't a hill I want to die on doe

 

[Orlando]

I'd say look at both Moscow and Lisbon. They are climbing out of it. We can definitely look into ways to close the gap, but tanking teams are going to have poor interest and I have no interest in a league that equalizes attendance.

 

[doh]

One could argue the league is broke now with the $120m budget gap between the top and the bottom

If it was by the old UBL way of budgets, it'd be a $200+m difference.

There is nothing wrong with economics in the league. If you tank and actively don't try to win, you should be punished big time. This is why I've posted 1,000 times I think a long term tank is not a winning way in this league. You have to build up your wins incrementally in many cases.

Others have been for rules that punish tanking teams but I never have been because the game has a huge built in anti-tanking measure: your budget.

The idea of "win the ship or get 1-1, nothing in between" seems like the popular one and I've always thought it's dumb. There are tons of ways through FA to now get lots of extra wins. There are tons of examples but Moscow signing Pals to a one-year, $5m deal and getting almost 5 WAR from catcher is one. I got Gerard Fernandez in FA for relatively cheap and and he led the league in HRs every full year with me. There are always ways in FA to increase your win total cheaply but people rather tank and spend it all in IFA which IMO is not a good long term play.

The other thing is the obsession with keeping players you have that are decent has led to some awful deals. It used to be in the UBL, it was no brainer to sign guys who were going to become FAs who were decent. Now, they are much more expensive.

In the same vein, unless a guy is a star or the salary is low, non-tendering guys would help a lot of teams in the league. I think that's another way teams aren't spending money wisely: continuing to offer arb to guys who are average and you can get for 30% of the price in FA.

Long rant but I think economics are fine. Same teams are good because other teams don't make efforts to get better in smart ways.

Keeping together good teams can be extremely costly and risky-- look at my salary page. Hernandes is going to make $19m next year and might be finished. Gale $13m and he's finished. I have a salary crunch and can't go big in IFA unless I move pieces.

BTW -- The only way to mitigate that risk? Sign guys to pre-arb deals. Now that will kill any future competitiveness of the league.

 

[Mr. Radpants]

Tldr play doh's way or ur dumb to doh

 

[Yankee151]

A restart wouldn't happen unless you want a league of 6-8 teams instead of the current 18. Fewer teams would just cause more bullshit and fuckstickery instead of less. More teams is a disaster based on the other leagues I've tried to play in only to quit after a season or two.



I would have used BUF since they followed ur lead and spent $50M on a SS that's stuck on a bad team with no farm depth but @Lloyd Carr is probably somewhere in DC looking for the real reason Seth Rich died or I would have @ed him instead. Also, lol @ u for pretending like spending hundreds of millions of dollars in IFA is something a rebuilding team can do. Ur right that the "no such thing as a bad one year FA" is a much better strategy than blowing millions on 16 year shitheads that never amount to anything other than bench players and relievers at best or farmhands and cautionary tale at worst.

Actually think Requero was a fine deal. All star SS at 22. Beeffalo had money to spend that offseason and Req was the best prospect

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[doh]

Tldr play doh's way or ur dumb to doh

Nah the main point of the league has always been don't light money on fire and keep financial flexibility.

 

[Yankee151]

I would still be up for an IFA cap, though 5M is too low. 15M is a bit better

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[doh]

I would still be up for an IFA cap, though 5M is too low. 15M is a bit better

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IFA cap is dumb because then the rich team will just flood FA/their own team with money.

Higher tax is smarter because that increases the amount of money that is just dead doing nothing.

 

[Orlando]

IFA cap is dumb because then the rich team will just flood FA/their own team with money.

Higher tax is smarter because that increases the amount of money that is just dead doing nothing.

What about making the untaxed limit higher and the tax higher?

 

[Yankee151]

Yes if possible

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