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Employees vs. Student-Athletes
- Thread starter GuyIncognito
- Start date
BasinBictory
OUT with the GOUT
But is he a better chemistry student than the guys who have been first-string chemistry majors for the past three years?
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
When it rains at Illinois, it pours: http://www.si.com/womens-college-ba...ois-womens-basketball-coach-allegations-abuse
Mike Thomas should probably be working on his resume
April 25, 2015
David and Lydia Tuck
Chancellor Phyllis Wise
Swanlund Administration Building
601 E. John Street
Champaign,IL 61820
Dear Chancellor Wise,
We are writing in regards to some concerns that have become epidemic and are affecting the entire Illinois Women's Basketball Program. It is our understanding that at least some levels of the administration have been alerted to many of these concerns, but we believe that challenges are broad enough that the highest levels of authority should be made aware. It is common knowledge that some player's parents are planning to escalate these issues. It is not our intention to bring reproach upon the program or the school. In fact, it is our hope that through quick and intentional action the school can head offrepercussions that could lead to challenges on several fronts.
To come to the immediate point, Head Coach Matt Bollant has created a culture of mental and emotional abuse in the Women's Basketball Program and has not been compliant in areas of NCAA rules and principles. The following would be some of the areas that will be easy to verify in a broad consensus among a majority of the players:
1. Coach Bollant has systematically tried to create racial tension among the team.
2. He has verbally abused and berated girls based on personal attributes that have nothing to do with basketball (such as their intellectual ability).
3. He has systematically tried to discourage team members to the point of voluntary scholarship withdrawal, particularly players that were in the program before he became head coach.
4. Without reasonable cause or violation, on numerous occasions he has threatened to take players scholarships, including telling them not to bother to renew their apartment leases because they would not be remaining with the team.
5. Showing extreme preference in what could only be perceived as attempts to belittle and discourage all but the favored players.
If these were isolated incidents then there would be little that any one individual could do to build a case for abuse. However, these infractions have happened on a reoccurring basis, and in certain instances, have involved the entire team. These violations have gone against the highest principles and standards of the university and the NCAA, as well as basic student rights. It is clear that the following areas of the NCAA Constitution (2014-2015), though subjective, have been violated in principle: Article 2:2.2.1-5. Also, the mandate of the University of Illinois for reporting objective violations of By-laws 10.1(c), 12.1.2.1.5 and I2.1.2.1.6 is plainly evident. These NCAA constitutional and by-law rules are substantially restated in paraphrase in the University of Illinois Student-Athlete Handbook (20 I 4-20 1 5).
It is very clear that the Women's Basketball Team is in violation of the NCAA Inclusion Rules that are mandated by the Rehabilitation Act, Section 504, and enforced by the OCR (Office of Civil Rights, U.S. Department of Education). The NCAA Inclusion guidelines refer to the OCR issue of a "Dear Colleague Letter" on January 25,2013 that clarified the understanding of discrimination in intercollegiate sports and brings understanding to these institutions as to the necessity of abiding by federal government mandates in their sports programs. For a coach to point out a student's disability (that the student athlete has an IEP for), and then to berate the student, violates the student athlete's civil rights and is discriminatory and harassment based on disability. Also, announcing on a radio program that aplayer has been dealing with depression is both a discriminatory violation and a violation of privacy.
Furthermore, a head coach announcing to the parents that an assistant coach is bipolar can in no way mitigate the abuse that is being perpetrated upon student athletes. On the contrary, it proves a point of negligent liability showing that the school has knowledge of the abuse but has chosen to excuse it.
In the past few years much study has been done regarding abusive coaches and their relationships with the athletes that they coach. It is understood that there are many reasons why an athlete will not report a coach for his/her abuses. It has been difficult to stand by as our daughter, Taylor, has informed us of the violations that have affected her and her teammates. As parents it is our natural instinct to protect our children, even as they have entered into adulthood. We hope that the university will quickly take the necessary steps to bring this program into proper compliance and protect the athletes who have made great effort to properly and respectfully represent the University of Illinois under very challenging circumstances. To prevent this from becoming an open spectacle of reproach for the university, I believe it would be in order for the team to be informed, in a timely manner, of administrative actions that are being taken to rectify the serious issues. Hopefully, this will curtail further actions from being taken by the athletes and their families that would bring this matter into a more public arena.
Please understand that we do not have a vendetta in any way against the University of Illinois. We have appreciated the high values and principles that the university stands for. However, in this particular case, we believe that a lack of information has been the most likely cause of the inaction of the university. Clearly, it is too late for actions taken by the university to have any positive affect on our daughter. However, it is our desire that student-athletes remaining at the school willbe protected. Also, action by the university might go a long ways toward bringing healing to players who have been embittered and wounded by the Head Coach and his staff. Although we do not purport to represent other players or their families, if you deem it of value we would be willing to discuss this further.
In light of the NCAA Constitution Article 2.1.1, we are copying this information to the university President, Chancellor, Board of Trustees higher officers, and the applicable Board of Trustees committee and Student Representative.
Sincerely,
David and Lydia Tuck
cc: Mike Thomas, Director of Athletics
President Bob Easter
President-designate Timothy Killeen
Board of Trustees, Chairman Edward L. McMillan
Board of Trustees, Secretary Susan M. Kies
Board of Trustees Governance, Personnel and Ethics Committee: Chairman Patrick J. Fitzgerald, Timothy Koritz, James D. Montgofrery, Sr., Patricia Brown Holmes, Hannah Cave
Board of Trustees, Student Representative Lucas N. Frye
http://www.news-gazette.com/sports/...rs-regarding-ui-womens-basketball-program.htm
April 25, 2015
David and Lydia Tuck
Chancellor Phyllis Wise
Swanlund Administration Building
601 E. John Street
Champaign,IL 61820
Dear Chancellor Wise,
We are writing in regards to some concerns that have become epidemic and are affecting the entire Illinois Women's Basketball Program. It is our understanding that at least some levels of the administration have been alerted to many of these concerns, but we believe that challenges are broad enough that the highest levels of authority should be made aware. It is common knowledge that some player's parents are planning to escalate these issues. It is not our intention to bring reproach upon the program or the school. In fact, it is our hope that through quick and intentional action the school can head offrepercussions that could lead to challenges on several fronts.
To come to the immediate point, Head Coach Matt Bollant has created a culture of mental and emotional abuse in the Women's Basketball Program and has not been compliant in areas of NCAA rules and principles. The following would be some of the areas that will be easy to verify in a broad consensus among a majority of the players:
1. Coach Bollant has systematically tried to create racial tension among the team.
2. He has verbally abused and berated girls based on personal attributes that have nothing to do with basketball (such as their intellectual ability).
3. He has systematically tried to discourage team members to the point of voluntary scholarship withdrawal, particularly players that were in the program before he became head coach.
4. Without reasonable cause or violation, on numerous occasions he has threatened to take players scholarships, including telling them not to bother to renew their apartment leases because they would not be remaining with the team.
5. Showing extreme preference in what could only be perceived as attempts to belittle and discourage all but the favored players.
If these were isolated incidents then there would be little that any one individual could do to build a case for abuse. However, these infractions have happened on a reoccurring basis, and in certain instances, have involved the entire team. These violations have gone against the highest principles and standards of the university and the NCAA, as well as basic student rights. It is clear that the following areas of the NCAA Constitution (2014-2015), though subjective, have been violated in principle: Article 2:2.2.1-5. Also, the mandate of the University of Illinois for reporting objective violations of By-laws 10.1(c), 12.1.2.1.5 and I2.1.2.1.6 is plainly evident. These NCAA constitutional and by-law rules are substantially restated in paraphrase in the University of Illinois Student-Athlete Handbook (20 I 4-20 1 5).
It is very clear that the Women's Basketball Team is in violation of the NCAA Inclusion Rules that are mandated by the Rehabilitation Act, Section 504, and enforced by the OCR (Office of Civil Rights, U.S. Department of Education). The NCAA Inclusion guidelines refer to the OCR issue of a "Dear Colleague Letter" on January 25,2013 that clarified the understanding of discrimination in intercollegiate sports and brings understanding to these institutions as to the necessity of abiding by federal government mandates in their sports programs. For a coach to point out a student's disability (that the student athlete has an IEP for), and then to berate the student, violates the student athlete's civil rights and is discriminatory and harassment based on disability. Also, announcing on a radio program that aplayer has been dealing with depression is both a discriminatory violation and a violation of privacy.
Furthermore, a head coach announcing to the parents that an assistant coach is bipolar can in no way mitigate the abuse that is being perpetrated upon student athletes. On the contrary, it proves a point of negligent liability showing that the school has knowledge of the abuse but has chosen to excuse it.
In the past few years much study has been done regarding abusive coaches and their relationships with the athletes that they coach. It is understood that there are many reasons why an athlete will not report a coach for his/her abuses. It has been difficult to stand by as our daughter, Taylor, has informed us of the violations that have affected her and her teammates. As parents it is our natural instinct to protect our children, even as they have entered into adulthood. We hope that the university will quickly take the necessary steps to bring this program into proper compliance and protect the athletes who have made great effort to properly and respectfully represent the University of Illinois under very challenging circumstances. To prevent this from becoming an open spectacle of reproach for the university, I believe it would be in order for the team to be informed, in a timely manner, of administrative actions that are being taken to rectify the serious issues. Hopefully, this will curtail further actions from being taken by the athletes and their families that would bring this matter into a more public arena.
Please understand that we do not have a vendetta in any way against the University of Illinois. We have appreciated the high values and principles that the university stands for. However, in this particular case, we believe that a lack of information has been the most likely cause of the inaction of the university. Clearly, it is too late for actions taken by the university to have any positive affect on our daughter. However, it is our desire that student-athletes remaining at the school willbe protected. Also, action by the university might go a long ways toward bringing healing to players who have been embittered and wounded by the Head Coach and his staff. Although we do not purport to represent other players or their families, if you deem it of value we would be willing to discuss this further.
In light of the NCAA Constitution Article 2.1.1, we are copying this information to the university President, Chancellor, Board of Trustees higher officers, and the applicable Board of Trustees committee and Student Representative.
Sincerely,
David and Lydia Tuck
cc: Mike Thomas, Director of Athletics
President Bob Easter
President-designate Timothy Killeen
Board of Trustees, Chairman Edward L. McMillan
Board of Trustees, Secretary Susan M. Kies
Board of Trustees Governance, Personnel and Ethics Committee: Chairman Patrick J. Fitzgerald, Timothy Koritz, James D. Montgofrery, Sr., Patricia Brown Holmes, Hannah Cave
Board of Trustees, Student Representative Lucas N. Frye
http://www.news-gazette.com/sports/...rs-regarding-ui-womens-basketball-program.htm
Hachiko
The Akita on Utopia
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/s...rn-football-players-cannot-unionize.html?_r=0
Dear Northwestern Football Team,
Now's your chance to make a real statement: don't show up to play on the first game of the season. Risk it all and regret nothing. That is an order.
Signed,
THE Hachiko.
Dear Northwestern Football Team,
Now's your chance to make a real statement: don't show up to play on the first game of the season. Risk it all and regret nothing. That is an order.
Signed,
THE Hachiko.
BasinBictory
OUT with the GOUT
I think it would be absolutely hilarious if the footbaw team went on strike and Northwestern, in am orgy of misplaced school pride, solicited open tryouts for
It would be like Necessary Roughness, except without Kathy Ireland (although the ersatz team would probably take it in the ass every week).
Lightningwar
Administrator
At some point a strike may be necessary to really get their attention. Imagine the shitshow a single BCS team forfeiting an entire season would cause with seasonal play but also the playoff.
BasinBictory
OUT with the GOUT
Forfeiting after the season is done? Or striking and not playing the whole year?
A strike would never happen because the individual players would be too self interested to maintain the solidarity necessary for it. Whether it's maintaining the scholarship needed for their education, trying to get on highlight reels for pro scouts, or just flat-out fighting for playing time and recognition, the culture of collegiate sports is different from the pros in that the inflow and outflow of players in their ranks is much faster and many of them are trying to actually get paid, as opposed to pros who are already on a payroll and might go on strike to negotiate better terms.
Lightningwar
Administrator
It would have to be before the season for it to affect anything. You are right about the self interest situation. But it would be rather interesting to watch the fall out. And nothing would get the ball rolling faster than entire teams not being able to play a season.
Wooly
Well-Known Member
In addition, Northwestern is a private 61,000 dollar a year school to attend. You are leaving school altogether if you go that route, because no one is covering that cost without a scholi.
MtneerManiac
Burning Couches
rekt
kingssc
Well-Known Member
More reasons for @GuyIncognito to hate VT.
http://deadspin.com/asshole-college-football-coach-comes-up-with-new-way-to-1726804159
Fortunately looks like the AD already shot it down.
http://deadspin.com/asshole-college-football-coach-comes-up-with-new-way-to-1726804159
Fortunately looks like the AD already shot it down.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
lol, Bud Foster. He's like Mike Stoops but not as much fun.
Roll Fizzlebeef (aka USF)
Active Member
Would it make sense as a start to at least consider these guys employees of the school, same as you would the girl that works at the bookstore on campus? You could even pay them nearly the same shitty wage, but at least then they would have some reasonable pay for their work, and be protected a little better under work related laws. I don't have any huge answers to these matters, but that seems like a logical start at least
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Well the NLRB just said explicitly that they aren't employees, at least as far as federal law is concerned.
So the NCAA is under no obligation to treat them as such, and if they can keep profiting off this racket then why wouldn't they? If we're waiting for Mark Emmert's conscience to get the better of him then we're in for a long wait.
So the NCAA is under no obligation to treat them as such, and if they can keep profiting off this racket then why wouldn't they? If we're waiting for Mark Emmert's conscience to get the better of him then we're in for a long wait.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
The most obvious solution to me is still to absolve the schools of any responsibility to pay them, and just repeal the NCAA rules against third party compensation.
There is no reason at all that Jameis Winston shouldn't be allowed to be a spokesman for Publix while playing college football, and it wouldn't cost the school a dime.
There are corporate sponsors just BEGGING to throw money at these kids. That's the solution. Let them profit off their own market value.
*This policy would also quite conveniently dodge any Title IX implications in a way that direct payments would not.
There is no reason at all that Jameis Winston shouldn't be allowed to be a spokesman for Publix while playing college football, and it wouldn't cost the school a dime.
There are corporate sponsors just BEGGING to throw money at these kids. That's the solution. Let them profit off their own market value.
*This policy would also quite conveniently dodge any Title IX implications in a way that direct payments would not.
Lightningwar
Administrator
Add Tuberville to the list of assholes that are going to fine his players now they are getting a few extra bucks in their pockets.
Karl Hungus
Here to fix the cable
Tommy T confirmed asshole.
Karl Hungus
Here to fix the cable
@GuyIncognito
Here's foster's list of fineable offenses:
Lol at the fine for a dirty locker being 3x the fine of behaving so badly in class that the teacher reports you. FOOTBAW
And Ho Lee Fuk, look at these:
A possible $1600 fine? GTFO
Here's foster's list of fineable offenses:
Lol at the fine for a dirty locker being 3x the fine of behaving so badly in class that the teacher reports you. FOOTBAW
And Ho Lee Fuk, look at these:
A possible $1600 fine? GTFO
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
lol, that's embarrassing.
Whatever happened to "do any of this stuff and the strength coach will murder you?" I would have happily paid a few bucks to avoid that shit man.
It's just warped. What happened to the money?
Whatever happened to "do any of this stuff and the strength coach will murder you?" I would have happily paid a few bucks to avoid that shit man.
It's just warped. What happened to the money?
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
And dirty dorm? Do they have random room searches or what?
atlbraves
Well-Known Member
I want to know is how is "disrupting a class" is only $15, compared to the others. How many times have you'll been in a college class where a student was so "disruptive" that the teacher reported it? I don't think I've ever seen it, and I can't really imagine it. Is this a common behavior for student-athletes? If they can't even be in an academic setting without disrupting others' learning, it's a big indictment of the marriage between academics and athletics.
BasinBictory
OUT with the GOUT
Seriously. I don't think I ever saw ANY class in college that was disrupted by unruly students. I also had a number of footbaw players in some of my classes, too. They had douchebro tendencies, but they weren't disruptive.
Karl Hungus
Here to fix the cable
Once. Jabari Brown, a basketball player, was sleeping in a class on the de-colonization of Africa. The teacher asked him to wake up or leave, so he got up, said 'fuck you' to the teacher, and left.
He showed up uninvited with some other players at a house party I was at, but it was cool because he brought a giant fucking joint to share. OK guy in my book.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I'll cut them some slack on that one. Some professors are assholes, and they don't like having athletes in their classes. And they know that they can report athletes to coaches and the coaches will punish without asking questions.
So.. some professors do that for behavior they don't like, even if it doesn't rise to what you guys are thinking of as "disruptive." They have to take that shit from regular students because there's no authority to appeal to. But with athletes it just takes an email saying "X was acting up/distracting others/disrupting class today" and it will get "corrected." Talking to each other during the lecture, doing anything that the professor has to notice from the front of the room, can get you rung up. I've seen it firsthand.
Once professors earn themselves a reputation for bitching about athletes, the academic support staff will usually try to steer athletes out of those classes, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
So I'm OK with that discrepancy, because a lot of those reports are bullshit from academics who are offended they have to teach athletes at all.
*This is also a PSA for any aspiring academics haha. Don't email coaches about players (at least about something bad) except in the most dire circumstances. If you want somebody to hate you at a personal level, you tell someone like Bud Foster that one of his guys is acting up.
Some teachers think they're generating a "teachable moment" or a pep talk when they make those reports, but what they're really doing is having some 18 year old rolled until he pukes.
So.. some professors do that for behavior they don't like, even if it doesn't rise to what you guys are thinking of as "disruptive." They have to take that shit from regular students because there's no authority to appeal to. But with athletes it just takes an email saying "X was acting up/distracting others/disrupting class today" and it will get "corrected." Talking to each other during the lecture, doing anything that the professor has to notice from the front of the room, can get you rung up. I've seen it firsthand.
Once professors earn themselves a reputation for bitching about athletes, the academic support staff will usually try to steer athletes out of those classes, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
So I'm OK with that discrepancy, because a lot of those reports are bullshit from academics who are offended they have to teach athletes at all.
*This is also a PSA for any aspiring academics haha. Don't email coaches about players (at least about something bad) except in the most dire circumstances. If you want somebody to hate you at a personal level, you tell someone like Bud Foster that one of his guys is acting up.
Some teachers think they're generating a "teachable moment" or a pep talk when they make those reports, but what they're really doing is having some 18 year old rolled until he pukes.
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GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I'll also defend them a bit because regular students don't have to go to class every day, and most of them aren't working 60 hours a week on top of their class schedule.
A regular student can wake up and feel like shit and say "fuck it, I'll get the notes from somebody" and go back to bed. At most programs with any kind of rigorous academic monitoring, you better be in class every single day or you're dead.
So as awful as it sounds, I'm not even that gung-ho about punishing a guy who nods off in class and gets pissed when he gets called on it. If it was up to him he wouldn't be there in the first place.
I get "you're on scholarship" and blah blah blah, but in the spring especially when you had a 5:00am conditioning set and then a 6:30 workout and then an 8am class on whatever (colonialism in Africa), you're not getting anything out of that lecture in the first place. You just can't leave because you'll be killed.
You also can't avoid those morning classes usually because you can't schedule shit in the afternoon thanks to your sport.
A regular student can wake up and feel like shit and say "fuck it, I'll get the notes from somebody" and go back to bed. At most programs with any kind of rigorous academic monitoring, you better be in class every single day or you're dead.
So as awful as it sounds, I'm not even that gung-ho about punishing a guy who nods off in class and gets pissed when he gets called on it. If it was up to him he wouldn't be there in the first place.
I get "you're on scholarship" and blah blah blah, but in the spring especially when you had a 5:00am conditioning set and then a 6:30 workout and then an 8am class on whatever (colonialism in Africa), you're not getting anything out of that lecture in the first place. You just can't leave because you'll be killed.
You also can't avoid those morning classes usually because you can't schedule shit in the afternoon thanks to your sport.
Lightningwar
Administrator
One time in my entire career. A prank was played by a student where he pretended to have a melt down in our sociology final. It was kind of comical. Even more funny was how he got expelled for doing it.
Lightningwar
Administrator
Cincy and VT recruiting going to tank even more after this crap.
Karl Hungus
Here to fix the cable
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
Shouldn't this actually help recruiting? After all, the whole point of these fines are to help the kids, right?
coogrfan
Well-Known Member
So you're saying that basic standards of courtesy and respect towards someone who is just trying to do their job should not apply to the poor, overworked athletes?
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Well what I'm saying is that I don't think a professor should interpret a kid nodding off as a sign of disrespect.
Karl Hungus
Here to fix the cable
To be fair to Jabari, he didn't just nod off- he put his head down and went to sleep as soon as class started.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
lol so yeah. If I'm a professor someday then the athletes can sleep, preferably in the back and quietly.
atlbraves
Well-Known Member
atlbraves
Well-Known Member
@GuyIncognito I don't see any of the behind-the-scenes stuff between the professors and the athletic department, but I can see how it would be shitty to be an athlete in a class where a teacher "has it out for you" to some degree. It just came as a surprise to me because I honestly haven't seen any behavior in a college course that even approached disruptive. All of the athletes that I've had classes with were good students, as far as I know.
In regards to the stresses of the 60-hr/wk workload on top of schoolwork, one of the flaws in the "they're already paid with a scholarship" argument is an elite college athlete's schedule is prohibitive to taking full advantage of the scholarship. One idea that I've seen floated around is allowing student-athletes to take their classes after their athletic careers are over. I don't know exactly how it would be implemented - maybe athletes could knock out the general "weed-out" classes during their careers and then pursue a major after their playing days.
In regards to the stresses of the 60-hr/wk workload on top of schoolwork, one of the flaws in the "they're already paid with a scholarship" argument is an elite college athlete's schedule is prohibitive to taking full advantage of the scholarship. One idea that I've seen floated around is allowing student-athletes to take their classes after their athletic careers are over. I don't know exactly how it would be implemented - maybe athletes could knock out the general "weed-out" classes during their careers and then pursue a major after their playing days.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Well like I said, I don't think Bud Foster's idea of "disruptive" and yours are the same. I know when I was in school, guys got reported for the most benign shit in some classes. Making jokes, or talking to classmates during the lecture, or whatever.
All that has to happen is an email from prof (more likely a TA) to coach saying "Hi coach, I'm sorry to bother you but I thought you should know that XXX was being disruptive in class today."
And it's not like there's going to be an investigation. You just get punished. And if it's the same prof over and over then they'll try to steer people out of that class.
That's not to say it's always te case. Some athletes are assholes and they should be punished for representing the program like an asshole. And some professors are saints who really do "get it" and would never use their captive athletes to nurture some grudge.
I'm just trying to say that I don't think it's SO bad that "disrupting class" should be fined relatively lightly, because you wouldn't believe some of the shit these guys get written up for.
All that has to happen is an email from prof (more likely a TA) to coach saying "Hi coach, I'm sorry to bother you but I thought you should know that XXX was being disruptive in class today."
And it's not like there's going to be an investigation. You just get punished. And if it's the same prof over and over then they'll try to steer people out of that class.
That's not to say it's always te case. Some athletes are assholes and they should be punished for representing the program like an asshole. And some professors are saints who really do "get it" and would never use their captive athletes to nurture some grudge.
I'm just trying to say that I don't think it's SO bad that "disrupting class" should be fined relatively lightly, because you wouldn't believe some of the shit these guys get written up for.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I'm a big fan of that second suggestion. Separating the educational experience from the athletic one would save a lot of people a lot of grief, and make that academic scholarship much more valuable.
One of the reasons I quit (beside being hurt all the time and not being very good) was because I got really interested in Middle Eastern Studies (at the time, blowing up the Middle East, shamefully), and there was only one Arabic class and it was at 3 in the afternoon. If I was depending on football to put food on my table, it would have been too bad. That's a stupid situation to put people in.
*Although I should say that a lot of teams are now practicing early in the morning and that frees some schedules up.
But that idea will never fly. Because it would require the NCAA to admit that their players are putting in all that work in the first place, and the official NCAA line is that no player devotes more than 20 hours a week to their sport.
One of the reasons I quit (beside being hurt all the time and not being very good) was because I got really interested in Middle Eastern Studies (at the time, blowing up the Middle East, shamefully), and there was only one Arabic class and it was at 3 in the afternoon. If I was depending on football to put food on my table, it would have been too bad. That's a stupid situation to put people in.
*Although I should say that a lot of teams are now practicing early in the morning and that frees some schedules up.
But that idea will never fly. Because it would require the NCAA to admit that their players are putting in all that work in the first place, and the official NCAA line is that no player devotes more than 20 hours a week to their sport.
atlbraves
Well-Known Member
I was just saying that, based on my experience with players in class, it would have been a big-time dick move for the teachers to be sending those kinds of emails. I hope they weren't.
Another benefit to the "deferred scholarship" idea is that the athletes will have a better appreciation for the education once they've seen their athletic career through to the end, and a successful pro career didn't pan out. In addition to the "free education," I think the NCAA implicitly sells the NFL/NBA dream to players as a way of justifying not compensating them. It's easy to see how this can create a mentality of "we ain't come to play school/I'll be in the NFL soon enough" in a lot of guys. Once their career is over and they've been disabused of that mindset, they'll be much better equipped to get their education IMO.
Another benefit to the "deferred scholarship" idea is that the athletes will have a better appreciation for the education once they've seen their athletic career through to the end, and a successful pro career didn't pan out. In addition to the "free education," I think the NCAA implicitly sells the NFL/NBA dream to players as a way of justifying not compensating them. It's easy to see how this can create a mentality of "we ain't come to play school/I'll be in the NFL soon enough" in a lot of guys. Once their career is over and they've been disabused of that mindset, they'll be much better equipped to get their education IMO.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I would fully support a system that gave players, say, 7-8 years of tuition + room and board with an understanding that they only get the first 5 to play 4.
It wouldn't even cost that much. A seat in a room and a bed in a dorm.
It wouldn't even cost that much. A seat in a room and a bed in a dorm.
Wooly
Well-Known Member
If you go so far as to defer the academic degree to after playing out your sport, what is the point to athletics in college? Is there a point to athletics in college? What would happen if you did the degree first, then played football? I think that answers the question.
Maybe it's time to just get rid of varsity athletics and scholarships altogether. I was talking with a board member from Washington State and he and I were in agreement that the time has come to end the charade and just concentrate on education. And no most school are not making a net profit on football, they do it as a cost of business, an advertising cost. Get rid of it for everyone, and almost everyone will save some money.
Isn't it interesting that athletes in sports other than football, basketball, and baseball, the big 3 sports let's say, are by and large very good students. They spend a lot of time on both sports and school, and balance both well. Isnt it interesting that athletes in the big 3 sports at small private schools also do well academically. Isn't it interesting that female athletes in all sports do well academically. Of course in all of these situations the athletes went to school expecting and wanting to do well in both school and sports, so maybe that's the key...
Why not just say/admit that the academic problems for the athletes in big 3 sports are as much about the athletes and the programs as anything else. In the big 3 sports, neither the players, nor the programs care about school, and therein lies the rub. They could solve those problems tomorrow by hiring different coaches and recruiting different players.
You don't have to change all the rules for football, just treat them like you do other sports. College Football doesn't need special concessions, they need to get out of the sports business game and leave professional sports to actual professional sports leagues.
Maybe it's time to just get rid of varsity athletics and scholarships altogether. I was talking with a board member from Washington State and he and I were in agreement that the time has come to end the charade and just concentrate on education. And no most school are not making a net profit on football, they do it as a cost of business, an advertising cost. Get rid of it for everyone, and almost everyone will save some money.
Isn't it interesting that athletes in sports other than football, basketball, and baseball, the big 3 sports let's say, are by and large very good students. They spend a lot of time on both sports and school, and balance both well. Isnt it interesting that athletes in the big 3 sports at small private schools also do well academically. Isn't it interesting that female athletes in all sports do well academically. Of course in all of these situations the athletes went to school expecting and wanting to do well in both school and sports, so maybe that's the key...
Why not just say/admit that the academic problems for the athletes in big 3 sports are as much about the athletes and the programs as anything else. In the big 3 sports, neither the players, nor the programs care about school, and therein lies the rub. They could solve those problems tomorrow by hiring different coaches and recruiting different players.
You don't have to change all the rules for football, just treat them like you do other sports. College Football doesn't need special concessions, they need to get out of the sports business game and leave professional sports to actual professional sports leagues.
The school itself might not be making a net profit, but you are kidding urself if you don't see all the financial incentives people AT the school have to maintain the status quo. Everyone involved in athletics, fundraising, corches, trainers, all the way up to the AD and President of the university have huge personal financial incentives to keep these sports tied to the Universities. I just don't see that being remotely realistic to change. If anything these sports are headed toward becoming more and more professional and the Universities are embracing that relationship even tighter.
The only thing that bothers me is the charade of pretending there is a shred of academic integrity at all in the process. Everyone acts shocked when schools get caught in academic scandals that are literally being forced on them by circumstance. Even the best students who are playing sports aren't getting the educations they deserve because of the time commitment and the schedules. If we're going to insist that the opportunity to pursue an academic degree is enough "payment," for these athletes, then the least we could do is allow the athletes to choose how/when they want to take advantage of that opportunity. Why not let them take lighter course loads during semesters where they are in season? Why not let them finish the degrees at a slower pace or a later date if they wish? If they don't wish to pursue that degree, then at least we aren't de-valuing all the other degrees by force-passing players who aren't interested in academics. Why not let them either pursue their degree when they actually have time to get the education they've earned, or even transfer the opportunity to a family member who will take advantage of it? None of this would cost the schools anything and it would help to get rid of the academic charade of the current system.
Wooly
Well-Known Member
What I said was true. I didn't say the schools themselves would do it, they would have to be forced into meaningful change. The schools are in an arms race for market share, using sports to sell their brand to potential students. They engage in it because they feel the have to, in order to keep up. If you got rid of athletic scholarships, and got rid of varsity athletics as we know it, then sports as an arms race goes away. Will they still fight a marketing war? Yes, but God forbid it being over their academic prowess instead of sports.
I didn't say how practical this is either, because the bigger point to me is to show that this is all an artificial problem. Since these problems were caused by the participants themselves, we don't have to feel bad for the players or the programs, and we don't have to change things to "fix artificial problems". The problems of football players as student athletes who struggle as students, was created by the schools and football programs, with the players as willing participants in the hoax and the problems. Why let either off the hook? Why treat them special? If they want an education, then go to school. I don't like the programs, but I don't feel bad for the players either. They don't care about school any more than the program does. Screw them both. I don't get this "the players are getting screwed" sympathy that seems to have gained steam in the last decade. They are part of the problem, they are not innocent bystanders, or unwitting poor people pressed into service, or just trying to better themselves. We are talking about a football game. If you don't like the situation then don't play, then go enter into the real adult world...THEN you can complain about oppression with the rest of us!
I don't need the best athletes in the world to watch football. I don't watch the NFL, so I obviously don't care about that issue. Holy Cross and Colgate will still play football, without scholarships, TV exposure, or any hope of professional aspirations...and the players will still go to school and graduate...and I will watch them play.
I guess the best way to put it is that I don't like supporting the charade, therefore I don't like support changes that help support the charade. We all know the reality of the situation. Why make it even easier for the schools to continue the charade by allowing them to have football players that don't even pretend to be students? Nope, you're a school, so act like it. I may be in the minority, and this may be a pipe dream, but that is how I feel. I don't want to see football players getting special treatment, and I don't want to see them waiting until they are done playing to go to school. I don't want to see them worked all week like dogs and told that school is secondary to football either.
The sooner the NFL is forced to start a developmental league, the better.
I didn't say how practical this is either, because the bigger point to me is to show that this is all an artificial problem. Since these problems were caused by the participants themselves, we don't have to feel bad for the players or the programs, and we don't have to change things to "fix artificial problems". The problems of football players as student athletes who struggle as students, was created by the schools and football programs, with the players as willing participants in the hoax and the problems. Why let either off the hook? Why treat them special? If they want an education, then go to school. I don't like the programs, but I don't feel bad for the players either. They don't care about school any more than the program does. Screw them both. I don't get this "the players are getting screwed" sympathy that seems to have gained steam in the last decade. They are part of the problem, they are not innocent bystanders, or unwitting poor people pressed into service, or just trying to better themselves. We are talking about a football game. If you don't like the situation then don't play, then go enter into the real adult world...THEN you can complain about oppression with the rest of us!
I don't need the best athletes in the world to watch football. I don't watch the NFL, so I obviously don't care about that issue. Holy Cross and Colgate will still play football, without scholarships, TV exposure, or any hope of professional aspirations...and the players will still go to school and graduate...and I will watch them play.
I guess the best way to put it is that I don't like supporting the charade, therefore I don't like support changes that help support the charade. We all know the reality of the situation. Why make it even easier for the schools to continue the charade by allowing them to have football players that don't even pretend to be students? Nope, you're a school, so act like it. I may be in the minority, and this may be a pipe dream, but that is how I feel. I don't want to see football players getting special treatment, and I don't want to see them waiting until they are done playing to go to school. I don't want to see them worked all week like dogs and told that school is secondary to football either.
The sooner the NFL is forced to start a developmental league, the better.
atlbraves
Well-Known Member
"If you don't like the situation, don't play." What if your best way of providing a future for yourself and your family is football? I don't think there's anything wrong with football being your primary marketable skill, as long as you're good enough to play in the NFL. Unfortunately for aspiring NFLers in this situation, there is literally no alternative to the college route. How is that a "willing participant"?
Wooly
Well-Known Member
This is the greatest fallacy of them all. Football is the only way to put food on the table? Football is the only way out? Come on now.
Not only can you always learn something else to do, but you should never rely solely on a sport.
No one has to play football in order to have a job. If that is the case, I am going to say the only thing I can do is go to medical school and therefore school has to help me and give me special privileges to get there. You can't be that specific in your job hopes.
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Lightningwar
Administrator
I am willing to bet the majority of football programs make money. The athletic departments may not due to Title IX. Name me a school you think is losing money on football. I will look it up and see how much they generated in revenues vs expenses for 2014.
I'm also willing to bet the majority of players DO care about school to some degree, since they know they won't be going pro. Random backup guard from Michigan probably wants to grind out as much as he can from his free trip to college.
worst2first
Well-Known Member
We need a viable minor league system so that young guys that only want to play football have a way into the league. Guys that want to get an education can go to college and play. It works for baseball so why can't it work for football?
I also like the idea of at least the possibility of a deferred scholarship. It wouldn't have to be unlimited. For example, it could cover two additional years. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to accumulate two years worth of credit in four years.
I don't have all the answers but I do know the current system is big ole bag of shit and the schools and the entire industry that has sprung up to profit off of players have no real incentive to do anything about it.
I also like the idea of at least the possibility of a deferred scholarship. It wouldn't have to be unlimited. For example, it could cover two additional years. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to accumulate two years worth of credit in four years.
I don't have all the answers but I do know the current system is big ole bag of shit and the schools and the entire industry that has sprung up to profit off of players have no real incentive to do anything about it.