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Employees vs. Student-Athletes

GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
But it's an incentives question, right? What incentive does the NFL have to foot the bill for a minor league when the NCAA does it for free?

And that's the problem. MLB, I believe, offers tuition guarantees to aspiring baseball players to sweeten the deal to get them in the minors instead of the NCAA.

The NFL has no reason at all to go down that road.

As for wooly, I don't know where to start. I have a lot of millionaire friends and teammates who'd be doing god-knows-what if not for football, and they were aware of those stakes practically their whole lives.
 
Lightningwar

Lightningwar

Administrator
worst2first said:
We need a viable minor league system so that young guys that only want to play football have a way into the league. Guys that want to get an education can go to college and play. It works for baseball so why can't it work for football?

I also like the idea of at least the possibility of a deferred scholarship. It wouldn't have to be unlimited. For example, it could cover two additional years. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to accumulate two years worth of credit in four years.

I don't have all the answers but I do know the current system is big ole bag of shit and the schools and the entire industry that has sprung up to profit off of players have no real incentive to do anything about it.
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That would require the NFL to fund a minor league. Why would they do that when our public university system is so willing to do it for them?
 
coogrfan

coogrfan

Well-Known Member
Lightningwar said:
I am willing to bet the majority of football programs make money. The athletic departments may not due to Title IX. Name me a school you think is losing money on football. I will look it up and see how much they generated in revenues vs expenses for 2014.
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I assume by this you mean P5 football programs. I seriously doubt that would be the case for the G5's. And even if it was true...so what? Football programs don't get to operate in a vaccum.
 
coogrfan

coogrfan

Well-Known Member
worst2first said:
We need a viable minor league system so that young guys that only want to play football have a way into the league.
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"We need"? Who is "we"? The colleges don't want it, and the NFL sure as hell doesn't want to pay for something they get now for free.
 
Bmack

Bmack

IRREGULAR HUMAN USER
Mod Alumni
are football programs at shitty football schools really recruitment tools to get regular students to go there?
 
Travis7401

Travis7401

Douglass Tagg
Community Liaison
Bmack said:
are football programs at shitty football schools really recruitment tools to get regular students to go there?
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To Hamilton, the most important extra $ benefit of a football program is to regularly gather lizard money people in an exciting setting filled with school pride. Compared to the really expensive and stuffy galas and shit you have to throw in the offseason, a football game is a wonderful opportunity to solicit further donations or to at least show appreciation for previous giving. The whole event is subsidized by trogs, essentially, so the actual cost is limited to BBQ (cheap) and beer (cheap) and everyone has a good time. Even people who don't like football get caught up in the emotions of the pre-game setting and have fun. Most of the schmoozing is done pre-game because you don't wan't to be subject to the whims of good and bad fortune of sports or to be bugging true fans during the game. This is especially important if your team sucks.... in that case you should probably get everyone plastered at a tailgate event and do your schmoozing there before everyone gets in a bad mood and starts screaming at your QB for throwing his 4th pick of the game.

None of that $ will show up in the + column for the football/athletic programs, but the giving programs at every school rely heavily on such athletic events. Without them, they'd have to spend a lot more money to reach the same audience in the same positive mood. It doesn't even have to be at the game itself either, big schools have watch parties in cities where they have a ton of alumni. Get everyone together, pump some school spirit, and become Hamilton.
 
BasinBictory

BasinBictory

OUT with the GOUT
What would need to happen is for a whole lot of schools to go the route of University of Chicago and essentially de-fund and deemphasize their football program. Remember that in the very early 20th century, UoC was a football powerhouse. They deemphasized the football team, effectively committing football seppuku.

No school today would voluntarily do this.
 
Lightningwar

Lightningwar

Administrator
coogrfan said:
I assume by this you mean P5 football programs. I seriously doubt that would be the case for the G5's. And even if it was true...so what? Football programs don't get to operate in a vaccum.
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They dont have to be P5 programs. Give me a team. The point is when administrators complain about cost of attendance and football doesnt or wont make money they are full of shit. Football programs absolutely make money and carry entire athletic departments. The complaint about not making money within athletic departments is due to Title IX. Or they get creative with spending to balance the books. Like for instance UNLVs football program in 2013 had the exact same expenses as revenues.
 
BasinBictory

BasinBictory

OUT with the GOUT
Lightningwar said:
They dont have to be P5 programs. Give me a team. The point is when administrators complain about cost of attendance and football doesnt or wont make money they are full of shit. Football programs absolutely make money and carry entire athletic departments. The complaint about not making money within athletic departments is due to Title IX. Or they get creative with spending to balance the books. Like for instance UNLVs football program in 2013 had the exact same expenses as revenues.
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UNLV would have been one of the schools I would have suggested as one that doesn't make money. They've never been a power team (to my knowledge), and it was their basketball program that were the glamour boys of the athletic department.

What about smaller division schools? I'd imagine that their tipping point is much closer because they don't generally get the big-money TV deals that being tied to major conferences gets those schools, nor do they have much exposure outside their immediate regions.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Agreed with LW, the canard that football isn't profitable is a complete myth. What they mean is that they spend all the money they bring in elsewhere in the budget, but that's not the same thing.

But anyway, like I said before, if you repeal the compensation rules then we don't even have to touch this stupid argument.
 
Lightningwar

Lightningwar

Administrator
BasinBictory said:
UNLV would have been one of the schools I would have suggested as one that doesn't make money. They've never been a power team (to my knowledge), and it was their basketball program that were the glamour boys of the athletic department.

What about smaller division schools? I'd imagine that their tipping point is much closer because they don't generally get the big-money TV deals that being tied to major conferences gets those schools, nor do they have much exposure outside their immediate regions.
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It is difficult to say. I would imagine the smaller one goes the less likely it is they make money. I looked up Bemidgi State. A Div II program in northern MN. They had the exact same revenue as expenses($1,668,250). I suspect what these athletic departments are doing is saddling the football team with expenses for facilities other sports are using upto their revenue numbers.
 
Travis7401

Travis7401

Douglass Tagg
Community Liaison
I don't even know how, but I'm on EA's side on this one? :laughing: I figured EA and the NCAA would always be on the same side of the argument regarding STUDENT ATH-O-LETES, but now the NCAA really seems to have lost the plot.

In this case, if EA negotiated the rights with the proper groups that represent the national teams, then why the fuck does the NCAA have a say? EA isn't depicting NCAA teams so their status as players who are also on college teams shouldn't matter in that regard and the players aren't making any profit, so the amateur status isn't in question is it? Seems like the NCAA is setting themselves up to be hoisted on their own petard here, lol. The problem with their other NCAA video games is that EA never actually secured the license to depict player likenesses in the first place. If they'd actually worked out a deal with the NCAA like all of the television deals, then it wouldn't have been a deal, right? In FIFA they HAVE secured license to depict the national teams. I don't think the NCAA realizes that they are arguing against their own existence at this point.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
My understanding is that the NCAA doesn't have a say *with EA,* but they're threatening to terminate the players' eligibility if EA keeps them in the game.

So EA is actually doing a decent thing, yeah. I don't think the NCAA can force them to remove the players, they can just screw over the players instead.
 
Travis7401

Travis7401

Douglass Tagg
Community Liaison
I've never understood "amateur" concept as it relates to international play anyway, but how would EA depicting them in a video game be any different than them appearing on ESPN during the World Cup when it comes to amateurism? In neither case are they personally making $ but in both cases their likenesses are being used to make a lot of money by another entity.

Basically to me, the NCAA is making an argument that their own players aren't amateur for the same reason. If international women's soccer isn't amateur then neither is college women's soccer (and certainly not college football).

This is fucked. Can't believe I side with EA, lol.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Well, they're allowed to use their likenesses for "promotional" purposes, but not for commercial purposes. See the difference? Me neither.

What doesn't make sense to me is that if the argument here is (and it must be, since EA isn't paying them) that the mere exposure is the benefit, then how are they even allowed to PLAY on those international teams?

It's so fucked.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
That said, EA was planning to make money off these chicks without paying them. Looking at the list, it seems reasonable to believe that little girls in Canada and Mexico would buy this game to play with those players, so I don't want to get too excited about EA haha.

The NCAA is just so cartoonishly evil.
 
Travis7401

Travis7401

Douglass Tagg
Community Liaison
Lol, the distinction between commercial and promotional is absurd... but it is extra absurd in this case since it is arguably backwards.

If anything, the video game depiction is promotional. ESPN actually makes money televising the women's world cup thus I'd consider that commercial for sure. By adding women to their existing game (it isn't like they are offering it as a separate game or even as DLC) EA is adding extremely negligible commercial value to their product by including women. It seems like you could at least argue the inclusion of women's international teams was for more promotional in nature than commercial in that respect.
 
Travis7401

Travis7401

Douglass Tagg
Community Liaison
Soccer is really interesting to me from a licensing perspective because the same players can play for multiple teams in multiple competitions and securing the rights for ALL of those is necessary to depict them in each facet of the game? I remember a few years ago when EA did their 2012 Euro game they forgot to secure the rights for some key nations in their "Road to qualifying mode" (with teams that didn't make the tournament) so even though players like Gareth Bale were in the base game for their respective nation they weren't in the DLC because it was in a different competition?

Fire up normal FIFA12 and use Wales and you had Gareth Bale on your team. Fire up Euro12 and use wales and he was like Garty Bell or something. The best part is they didn't even give a fuck to just do numbers or anything like that where they could at least claim plausible deniability that it wasn't a "likeness", they just swapped like 2 letters and called it good. So ham-fisted.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Yeah, it's a nightmare (which is why I think IP is for goons anyway).

What bugs me is why they even bother. How obvious is it to just have a robust player editor and allow people to export roster/team files?

As if there aren't enough FIFA fans in the goddamn world that would HAPPILY spend days crafting perfect rosters (far better than EA can do).

And not only would they do it for free, but EA could repurpose whatever resources and manhours they waste coming up with even halfway passable rosters.

IDK. Seems "smack you in the face" obvious to me.
 
Karl Hungus

Karl Hungus

Here to fix the cable
NavyHog said:
So a couple guys are yelled at with the N-word and now they want to fire the school president? Of course I'm against rednecks yelling that sort of thing, but you can probably find incidents of that nature (pick a campus).

Many of the demands have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/n...cle_0c96f986-84c6-11e5-a38f-2bd0aab0bf74.html
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So you're firmly in the "Nothing to see here, shut up and entertain me" crowd on this. Got it.
 
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NavyHog

NavyHog

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
NCAA Moderator
Karl Hungus said:
So you're firmly in the "Nothing to see here, shut up and entertain me crowd" on this. Got it.
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So you're firmly in the "some activist group has an agenda, is calling for the firing of someone in the establishment, I support it" on this. Got it.
 
NavyHog

NavyHog

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
NCAA Moderator


Honestly don't think he meant "you people" when he gave his explanation of "when you believe".

Our society is moving more towards the movie "Idiocracy" every day.
 
Karl Hungus

Karl Hungus

Here to fix the cable
NavyHog said:
So you're firmly in the "some activist group has an agenda, is calling for the firing of someone in the establishment, I support it" on this. Got it.
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Some activist group? Please explain this to me.

What I see are a group of people who live and study in the community who have seen their concerns brushed aside or mocked. Their campaign to oust a feckless president seems justified to me.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
As for me, I don't really care about the underlying issue, I would just like to see a lot more of this by college athletes. They're much more powerful than they think they are. Wait until the advertisers and TV networks have to wonder whether they'll have a game to show.
 
Wooly

Wooly

Well-Known Member
Is there more to this? I don't get this demanding a resignation, usually you must have done something to get fired from such a lofty position. Not responding well enough doesn't seem a reasonable standard for firing him. That might create more damage than good for such a movement. You don't want to lose credibility by looking unreasonable to the public.

What are we missing in this story, because a lot of people are scratching their heads over this.
 
Lightningwar

Lightningwar

Administrator
This seems to me to be a bit overblown and or orchestrated. The ever increasing demands are quite frankly ridiculous. Unless this group wishes to live under that shit swastika. How can a school prevent people from doing horrible things?
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Lightningwar said:
This seems to me to be a bit overblown and or orchestrated. The ever increasing demands are quite frankly ridiculous. Unless this group wishes to live under that shit swastika. How can a school prevent people from doing horrible things?
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Yeah, it's dumb.

I'm just interested for the potential of actually having an SEC football team forfeit a game in protest. When is the last time something like that happened?
 
Lightningwar

Lightningwar

Administrator
GuyIncognito said:
Yeah, it's dumb.

I'm just interested for the potential of actually having an SEC football team forfeit a game in protest. When is the last time something like that happened?
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The prospect of forfeiting a game is fascinating to me. I cant think of a time it has ever happened.

btw I came across this article that was posted on another msgboard about some crazy at Yale screaming at a professor about not creating a safe zone. It is a scary view into where we are going as a country. And I think it applies in some way to this story. We may scoff at this behavior now, but in 15-20 years these people will be running the country.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/
 
Karl Hungus

Karl Hungus

Here to fix the cable
Lightningwar said:
This seems to me to be a bit overblown and or orchestrated. The ever increasing demands are quite frankly ridiculous. Unless this group wishes to live under that shit swastika. How can a school prevent people from doing horrible things?
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The school can't, but the president can at least attempt to appear sympathetic when horrible things happen on campus. I honestly don't think this situation would be happening if he weren't incompetent.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Eh, in 15-20 years the worst offenders will still be on college campuses, where they've always largely been sequestered away from the rest of us.
 
Lightningwar

Lightningwar

Administrator
GuyIncognito said:
Eh, in 15-20 years the worst offenders will still be on college campuses, where they've always largely been sequestered away from the rest of us.
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I hope you are right but we shit out a lot of graduates. Not all of them will be able to head back to their safe zones on campus. Meaning this is coming to corporate American and worse our own govt.
 
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