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2017-18 NBA Thread
- Thread starter NML
- Start date
Dr. Shats Basoon
Closed mouths don't get fed
What's wrong with it?
Jrue Holiday and Anthony Davis shooting a combined 0 FT on 40 shots makes sense
NML
Well-Known Member
Prepare the Hot Take Cannon!
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SU Shats
MSUFanatic
Well-Known Member
silverwheels
PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
Cheering for the Jazz just because of Mitchell.
NML
Well-Known Member
"his whole game" lol
he took 1500 shots this year. last year he lead the league in assists. he's one of the best five players in the league without doubt. fuck outta here
Bdub
Well-Known Member
He is an elite player because of the bullshit fouls he gets. He creates space on nearly every shot by pushing the defender out of the way. When the NBA finally takes that away he will be great player, but not elite. Look at last night. A backup point guard held him mostly in check the whole game. Elite players don't get stopped by backup point guards. Especially in the playoffs.
MSUFanatic
Well-Known Member
Step 1: Exaggerate your narrative.
He creates space on nearly every shot by pushing the defender out of the way
Step 2: Use anecdotal evidence or small sample sizes to prove your exaggerated narrative.
Look at last night. A backup point guard held him mostly in check the whole game.
Bdub
Well-Known Member
Step 1: invalidate the argument.
Step 2: Attack the person not the argument.
His whole game is geared towards exploiting the rules in place, that's true. He's also a master at it and one of the best players in the league with ease. He's an amazing player even if you set aside how often he goes to the line, but when you add that it makes him one of the most valuable guys in the league.
MSUFanatic
Well-Known Member
lollerskates
Not attacking you. Your argument is horrid. It's baseless on a 1 game sample size by exaggerating anecdotal evidence that was already proven inaccurate by @NML. Harden is not an elite player because he gets away with push offs? That's just hot take BS.
Ok, so he led the league in assists last year, is he suddenly ineffective at passing the ball if he gets called for 1 more whistle a game? Harden averaged 8.9 AST/G per 36 while only turning the ball over 4.4 TOV/G per 36 - and having the highest usage percentage in the league at 36.1% this year. That's .3 more than Bron who had the same assist total and 5% less usage percentage per game. I'd think most would agree and say LeBron is a very solid passer, while Harden seems to have him beat in that category, but push offs amirite?
What about shooting? That seems like a skill that an elite player should have. James Harden True Shooting Percentage was 62%. Others in that category Kevin Durant (64%), Lebron (62%), Klay Thompson (60%), Kyrie (61%), Steph (68%). Hmm dats odd. Another category Harden stacks up well against the other "consensus" elites in the NBA. What about effective FG%? Harden again, is very high on the list at 54%. Others in that category KD (58%), Bron (59%), Steph (60%).
So ya, in my 10 minute analysis of James Harden using actual data it seems like Harden is a pretty elite passer while limiting turnovers, and a pretty damn good shooter, and I'm not even looking at his best skill which is slashing to the rim and drawing those fouls. But push offs man.
MSUFanatic
Well-Known Member
LOL - Says the guy that claimed "I was attacking the person". SHOOK.
sayo
YEET
First of all, I agree that Harden is elite. He's a top offensive player and one of the most valuable players in the league.
I think you can argue that the way he puts pressure on the refs affects defenses to the point that if the rules were interpreted differently, he'd be less effective. Bottom line is that's too tough to argue and the rules are the way they are.
I think it is easy to watch him pull off the shenanigans he does and try and devalue his skill but the proof is in the pudding imo. It's okay to call bullshit on the calls he gets and hate him for fishing for calls but to try and say he'd just be a regular all star is dumb.
I think you can argue that the way he puts pressure on the refs affects defenses to the point that if the rules were interpreted differently, he'd be less effective. Bottom line is that's too tough to argue and the rules are the way they are.
I think it is easy to watch him pull off the shenanigans he does and try and devalue his skill but the proof is in the pudding imo. It's okay to call bullshit on the calls he gets and hate him for fishing for calls but to try and say he'd just be a regular all star is dumb.
My whole thing is the rules are what they are, and the refs call them how they call them so until that changes and it affects Harden's effectiveness then it's not worth tom bout.
MSUFanatic
Well-Known Member
jamesnathan
Resident Mormon
I respect Harden's talents. But I can't stand to watch him play sometimes. My problem is the same thing LeBron did a lot of in Miami.
You're one of the best athletes on the planet and one of the best at your sport of choice. Going after cheap foul calls (like the one on Ingles in the video above), to me, is no different from what soccer players do that everyone hates. Yes, he knows how to take advantage of the rules. But even in that, there's a line. It cheapens the game (for me, at least).
I actually was not too upset with the idea of Harden possibly winning a Championship this year. But all the cheap fouls he went after last night left a sour taste in my mouth.
You're better than that. You don't have to do that to win. No one likes watching that, not even your own fans.
You're one of the best athletes on the planet and one of the best at your sport of choice. Going after cheap foul calls (like the one on Ingles in the video above), to me, is no different from what soccer players do that everyone hates. Yes, he knows how to take advantage of the rules. But even in that, there's a line. It cheapens the game (for me, at least).
I actually was not too upset with the idea of Harden possibly winning a Championship this year. But all the cheap fouls he went after last night left a sour taste in my mouth.
You're better than that. You don't have to do that to win. No one likes watching that, not even your own fans.
affecting the effectiveness
influences Harden's effectiveness, if you wish
sayo
YEET
This has been my opinion of him since he's been in Houston except for the part about being okay with him winning a title.
If his unique ability to draw fouls helps his team win and he's the best at it, why wouldn't he use that skill? I agree that as a fan it blows, but if you're on his team or a part of the team in some way, you want him to use that as much as possible. We had a guy who could flop and draw charges on a very consistent basis and it was annoying as fuck until we were in real games and he'd get all their bigs in foul trouble.
jamesnathan
Resident Mormon
I've only watched two Houston games and they were both against the Jazz. So my thinking that he'd mellowed out a bit was probably just because I wasn't watching him.
Bdub
Well-Known Member
I never said the guy sucked. He just isn't elite at anything, but drawing fouls. If he takes his team to a championship then I will reconsider. I doubt that will happen though because in the playoffs things get a lot more physical and he can't produce if he can't drive his shoulder into the defender or push off to create space.
sayo
YEET
He is an elite scorer and distributer and probably the best isolation player in the game lol. Dude is definitely elite.
Bdub
Well-Known Member
Best iso player in the game? Come on man...
sayo
YEET
Of all players who average more than 2 isolations per game, he leads the league in points per possession at 1.22 (next highest is 1.09). Thing is, he averages 10 isolation possessions per game, which is more than 3 higher than Lebron (6.4 possessions .96 PPP) and 5 higher than RUSS (5 possessions at .82 PPP). Those are the two next players in terms of isolation attempts btw. Dude is objectively the best isolation player haha.
Can't post on my work computer but can access nba.com for stats.
NML
Well-Known Member
Who is better?
Even if you think the fouls he draws are all shit, surely you can understand that EVERY coach he plays against is telling his defense that Harden is going to draw fouls and he still gets them. He makes defenders do what he wants and even if they don’t, he’s still as high of a percentage as anyone in that spot
bruin
Well-Known Member
Lol
I ain't even say anything
I do see both sides
he can see tew sides...BREEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHH
MSUFanatic
Well-Known Member
RE: Harden
im on a pc now
let me clarify my thoughts
Do i get frustrated watching him draw fouls? Absolutely, but I can admit the dude can ball. Do I wish he wouldnt try to act like he wasnt sniped from the rooftops? yes, but when he is on, he is on and can single handedly take over a game
he is a legit elite player in the league, i just wish he didnt flop like a fish out of water so much
im on a pc now
let me clarify my thoughts
Do i get frustrated watching him draw fouls? Absolutely, but I can admit the dude can ball. Do I wish he wouldnt try to act like he wasnt sniped from the rooftops? yes, but when he is on, he is on and can single handedly take over a game
he is a legit elite player in the league, i just wish he didnt flop like a fish out of water so much
MSUFanatic
Well-Known Member
That's just the culture of the game now a days. You can find clips of almost every elite player putting their head down and flailing around like one of those crazy inflatable tube mans.
sayo
YEET
That's just the culture of the game now a days. You can find clips of almost every elite player putting their head down and flailing around like one of those crazy inflatable tube mans.
I think he takes it to another level, particularly from the 3 point line. I think he drew more fouls from 3 than most teams did (could be wrong on that stat).
Btw, despite me defending him, I still hate him more than any other athlete rn and he's a cunt.
sayo
YEET
Worse than I thought. Fucking hitler.