GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
If you're going to play the "logic" game, you don't start by saying that Enes Kanter and James Harden fill the exact same role. Harden's skillset was redundant. Kanter fills a huge gap.
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2014/15 NBA Thread pelican and okc bitches
- Thread starter NML
- Start date
silverwheels
PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
It just makes me laugh when national media guys and non-OKC fans think this kind of stuff is as simple as "oh, Harden put up good numbers so pay him max money even though you've got at least two more players who deserve it way more, if not three." Like this is fantasy basketball or NBA 2K where caps and tax penalties have no real world consequences and team chemistry doesn't matter. The fuck outta here.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I don't recall ever criticizing Harden for chasing the money. For fuck's sake, didn't OU11 just say he was in *my* school of "get paid son?"
I just refrained from criticizing the Thunder for not going into the tax for a redundant scorer who didn't want to be there in the first place and whose production could be replaced.
It's true that I never liked Harden, and I don't want to cheer for a team with him on it (which, after all, is my only basis for supporting a team), but I never "blamed" him for prioritizing the cash. It's a business.
In that same line of reasoning, Harden wasn't "owed" shit.
Kanter doesn't have to be a better player than Harden. It's not even a coherent comparison. They don't have the same role.
I think Durant and RUSS are going to feel better about an OKC with Kanter than an OKC without him, and that's the only thing OKC can really worry about.
just playing devils advocate, but do you think had Harden had maybe even another great year, that they still couldnt have unloaded his deal to someone else in a trade and probably gotten better pieces back?
NML
Well-Known Member
The difference is that one of us is a bias fan of that team, the other isn't. I don't particularly care one way or another how OKC does, I don't have a dog in the fight.
And no, it wasn't known. Harden said all the right things about wanting to stay and seemed upset to leave. It's just a rumor - just like how Mark Cuban was sobbing in his car trying to find DeAndre Jordan's house.
He also started two games his final season, so that's way too small of a sample size to judge. It'd be better judging how they were on the floor together. I don't have numbers to say one way or another, but he was part of the final unit that made it to the finals.
I didn't say that, the article you posted did. They both were "scoring 6th men."
You could argue just as much that Kanter's role is redundant. RUSS and Durant both need/want the ball in their hand, so the only roles that truly fit are mong big men who can rebound and play good defense and spot up shooters. That's why Ibaka fits so well, because he is both. Kanter is the former, but he does not play good defense and his offensive game has less impact when he doesn't get the ball. DeAndre Jordan and that mold would be a much better fit. Set hard screens and hang around the hoop waiting for an easy dunk/lay up.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
And as the ESPN piece went into, the window is much smaller now than it was then. These people aren't stupid, they understand that the time to win is right now, and that comes at a premium. Are the Thunder as much of a contender this season with Kanter in Portland or in OKC? Why isn't that the end of it?
silverwheels
PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
Maybe, maybe not. I do know that they were still contenders after the trade and got unlucky with injuries, but now have their deepest team yet. And yes, they're going over the tax now instead of back then, but now they know the cap is going way up twice in the next 3-4 years.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
lol, well if it was between Kanter and DeAndre Jordan then yeah they fucked up. I thought it was between Kanter and nobody.
silverwheels
PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
OKC should have Jordan, Ibaka, Durant, Harden, and RUSS right now so yeah they fucked up. Guaranteed titles and happiness.
NML
Well-Known Member
wat
Again, ur just biased because Harden left.
Truthfully - and I wouldn't myself - but plenty of people could make the argument that the best player of the three IS Harden. It's very debatable but what you can't debate is that the three are on the same level roughly. To do otherwise is just being biased and ignoring the stats. I'd definitely put him third myself, but again, debatable.
I don't get ur point about caps and tax penalties - OKC is going to pay the penalty for Kanter! That's the point.
Ur point about team chemistry is laughable - Durant has played zero seconds with Kanter and I'll make the not-so-crazy prediction that his contract looks a lot like Perkins did in two-three years.
NML
Well-Known Member
I didn't say "they should've signed DJ personally." I'm saying his type fits better.
Kanter really doesn't fit that well with Durant and Russ on the floor - or Ibaka for that matter. You can't have Ibaka and Kanter guarding the rim and if you take Ibaka away you are really hurting his skill set. Obviously pulling Kanter away is a disaster waiting to happen. Kanter's strengths are his rebounding (still worthwhile) and offensive guard, which as I mentioned, will be significantly diminished with the starting unit, just like y'all claim Harden's would be.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Does he fit better than Perkins did? Then STFU.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Whoever said it earlier was right: if the Thunder pay to keep this deep team together, people bitch. If they let Kanter walk, people bitch.
I for one am very happy with this roster, and am happy to have Harden faking his injuries somewhere else, and am excited for this season. Hundreds of free hours of entertainment that is made only more entertaining by the constant refrain from the haters that I'm supposed to be angry about it.
I for one am very happy with this roster, and am happy to have Harden faking his injuries somewhere else, and am excited for this season. Hundreds of free hours of entertainment that is made only more entertaining by the constant refrain from the haters that I'm supposed to be angry about it.
NML
Well-Known Member
OH HE MAD
A Perkins-type player definitely fits better, Perkins is just god-awful and his contract was even worse.
NML
Well-Known Member
OH YOU ARE ANGRY
I definitely wouldn't call myself an OKC "hater" because I don't care enough about the NBA and I'm also not 12. It's just awesome how you guys completely turn around on everything you said previously because the team went that direction too.
Observational humor is all - been watching a lot of Seinfeld this summer break, probably why it's even funnier to me.
Brick
Well-Known Member
@Travis7401 @ mak
...for a guy who sees no point in winning, you sure fret about it an awful lot; and you still sound panicked.
...for a guy who sees no point in winning, you sure fret about it an awful lot; and you still sound panicked.
Have some popcornHey @Reel wanta go Round 492 on the Holiday trade. I'm sure there's an angle we haven't covered.
If not, just pass the popcorn.
silverwheels
PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I'd like you to support the position that I've turned around on anything I said earlier. I would have been happy for OKC to pay Harden, or for Harden to play for what he was worth to OKC. I just wasn't pissed off at the Thunder for letting him go because A) I didn't like him, and B) I thought the team was a contender without him, and C) I understand they have a business to run.
This was a completely different context. They need to win right now and they need to be able to make some showing that if Durant/RUSS/Ibaka re-sign they're not going to waste their primes on a shit-ass rebuilding team.
The Thunder had to make this signing. They didn't have to sign Harden. I don't see what's not simple about it.
This was a completely different context. They need to win right now and they need to be able to make some showing that if Durant/RUSS/Ibaka re-sign they're not going to waste their primes on a shit-ass rebuilding team.
The Thunder had to make this signing. They didn't have to sign Harden. I don't see what's not simple about it.
PSUEagle
Well-Known Member
Team @GuyIncognito
I wasn't in love with the Harden trade, but the main reason people seem to hate it so much is because Bill Simmons is an absolute tool about mentioning it every single chance he gets.
The return wasn't good, but it was a logical, defensible move IMO. If they had gotten better pieces than just Steven Adams, OKC would have added a lot more balance and depth in return for a player who was probably redundant with Durant and Westbrook already in the fold.
I wasn't in love with the Harden trade, but the main reason people seem to hate it so much is because Bill Simmons is an absolute tool about mentioning it every single chance he gets.
The return wasn't good, but it was a logical, defensible move IMO. If they had gotten better pieces than just Steven Adams, OKC would have added a lot more balance and depth in return for a player who was probably redundant with Durant and Westbrook already in the fold.
NML
Well-Known Member
I obviously can't back up my position on either of you because of fluff e gate.
But let's look at your point C, since they other two are debatable (well, really only A is, only OKC fans would think they are more likely to win a title next year than the year after they traded Harden).
Why is okay to not worry about running a business now? What changed all of a sudden that going over the tax and is okay?
My guess, and it's just a guess, is that the owners eventually realized that Durant and Russ would leave if they weren't good and then all the easy money they were making and putting in their pockets would be gone. No one is showing up to watching Ibaka, or Kanter for that matter. So they probably decided "well unless we want to stop making money, we will have to pay the tax - that they refused to with Harden - and match Kanter."
The issue here is two-fold. One, Kanter isn't that good and his inflated numbers will take a hit once Durant is back. And two, that Durant will likely do the same thing regardless of if they made the signing or not. Which connects back to one, to an extent.
But, what they will be able to do, is if/when he leaves they can say "well we tried, can't say we didn't spend the money!" Even though they spent it badly instead of spending it on an actual good player.
But let's look at your point C, since they other two are debatable (well, really only A is, only OKC fans would think they are more likely to win a title next year than the year after they traded Harden).
Why is okay to not worry about running a business now? What changed all of a sudden that going over the tax and is okay?
My guess, and it's just a guess, is that the owners eventually realized that Durant and Russ would leave if they weren't good and then all the easy money they were making and putting in their pockets would be gone. No one is showing up to watching Ibaka, or Kanter for that matter. So they probably decided "well unless we want to stop making money, we will have to pay the tax - that they refused to with Harden - and match Kanter."
The issue here is two-fold. One, Kanter isn't that good and his inflated numbers will take a hit once Durant is back. And two, that Durant will likely do the same thing regardless of if they made the signing or not. Which connects back to one, to an extent.
But, what they will be able to do, is if/when he leaves they can say "well we tried, can't say we didn't spend the money!" Even though they spent it badly instead of spending it on an actual good player.
NML
Well-Known Member
I think the Harden trade was bad because it was bad. They traded one of the top 10 players in the league for a year of Kevin Martin and Steven Adams.
I don't think there needs to be any explanation as to why the Harden trade is bad. Now saying you agree with the Harden trade is another story and would require some defense.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I just said what changed: they need to win right now so they can prove to Durant/RUSS/Ibaka that they are committed to something other than tearing the team down.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Again, even calling it "the Harden trade" misses the point. In OKC's mind it was either trade him or get nothing after he walks. They thought Adams/Lamb/Martin was better than nothing, and I think that's defensible.
It's all in what frame of reference you choose, and pretending that it was some executive decision on OKC's part that they were better off with those players instead of Harden is being disingenuous.
It's easy to make people look stupid if you just throw all the context out the window. Harden wouldn't play for what they were offering (he may have not even played for what he was asking). So they either had to trade him or let him walk after a year of "what are you doing with Harden?" stories.
It's all in what frame of reference you choose, and pretending that it was some executive decision on OKC's part that they were better off with those players instead of Harden is being disingenuous.
It's easy to make people look stupid if you just throw all the context out the window. Harden wouldn't play for what they were offering (he may have not even played for what he was asking). So they either had to trade him or let him walk after a year of "what are you doing with Harden?" stories.
NML
Well-Known Member
Right, and my argument is that they could've made that point cheaper and with a better player by just keeping Harden in the first place. Also, they would've been better in the three years in between these events.
It was part of the original argument against the trade - what message are you sending to Durant and RUSS when you trade away a player of Harden's caliber? So they have to make up for that move by doubling down on Kanter.
Brick
Well-Known Member
NML
Well-Known Member
The issue is that OKC's mind should've been "keep Harden above all else."
I'm getting too old for this shit and my babby is about to wake up - plus I don't really care, it's just funny to see you riled up and tripping over urself.
You seem happy with 55 wins and a second round playoff exit, so enjoy it - you are the Clippers!
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
lol, i'll never get tired of the idea that Harden's 17 points and minus defense off the bench is the difference between winning titles and losing, especially when he played himself right off the roster in his last few games.
I like reading your posts in here. It's the only place where I can tell your emotions take over. In the politics forums you have the patience of Job and will debate MameYo, of all people, for days on end, but in here, you just can't take it. I feel like you are on the verge of calling people cock smokers at any second.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
It's the one place I allow my troll self to take over. Endlessly needling sports fans is a labor of love for me.
It's not just in here though. The reason Brick is in here taking swipes at me is due to years and years of "Clemson gonna Clemson, OK State gonna OK State, Oregon gonna Oregon" posts in the CFB forum, for instance.
It's not just in here though. The reason Brick is in here taking swipes at me is due to years and years of "Clemson gonna Clemson, OK State gonna OK State, Oregon gonna Oregon" posts in the CFB forum, for instance.
I need to take some notes, because it takes some elaborate effort on my part to get brick this riled.
Bucksin04
Well-Known Member
Excellent look at the DeAndre saga and why/how he went back to LA: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13247673/how-deandre-jordan-almost-left-los-angeles-clippers
Dr. Shats Basoon
Closed mouths don't get fed
OKC should have let Kanter walk. The wily Blazers laid the same trap on the poor Pacers with Roy 'lay-low Mother fucker' Hibbert.
Sucks to be stuck with that contract after KD leaves
Sucks to be stuck with that contract after KD leaves
doh
THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
Well OKC only could sign Kanter since they were at the cap. They didn't have enough space to sign DJ unless they got rid of a ton of salary.
LOL at the Harden arguing. It really comes down to one thing: The OKC billionaire owners cried poor. They saved tens of millions then and will cost themselves significantly more money when KD and RUSS leave because they never won a title.
I posted before it happened but it's hilarious they're matching now but wouldn't match before. Different situations but still insane.
The whole "window" thing is great too. When OKC lost, everyone said "don't worry they'll be back". Sports don't work like that.
LOL at the Harden arguing. It really comes down to one thing: The OKC billionaire owners cried poor. They saved tens of millions then and will cost themselves significantly more money when KD and RUSS leave because they never won a title.
I posted before it happened but it's hilarious they're matching now but wouldn't match before. Different situations but still insane.
The whole "window" thing is great too. When OKC lost, everyone said "don't worry they'll be back". Sports don't work like that.
doh
THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
They had literally no other option. This might be their last KD year. Who cares about 2018 if KD and RUSS are gone because you couldn't win in 2016?
Also @NML, it is different now because the caps about to go up $10M a year haha. Where have you been? We're going to be looking at 90M in 3 years if the projections are right (they undershot this year).
Yall need to quit arguing two things. Whether the team was better off with harden is one you wont win with thudner fans. But the money situation changed pretty drastically in the years following, enough that it changed their ideas about what they were willing to do contract wise
Yall need to quit arguing two things. Whether the team was better off with harden is one you wont win with thudner fans. But the money situation changed pretty drastically in the years following, enough that it changed their ideas about what they were willing to do contract wise