Speculitis. The irony of winged lecturing others on quitting over petty chemistry issues is so rich to me.
Go ahead and watch these team guys finish with a -10 GD. US progress!
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USA National Soccer (M & W) Thread
- Thread starter Yankee151
- Start date
Speculitis. The irony of winged lecturing others on quitting over petty chemistry issues is so rich to me.
Go ahead and watch these team guys finish with a -10 GD. US progress!
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Why is that absurd? And Klinsmann's extension says he will be around for 2018.
Aren't you the one willing to put money on the US ending up with fewer than 3pts in this world cup? If Klinsmann came to the same conclusion you did, then why would it be absurd to get the young guys some caps against the best competition in the world rather than wasting them padding Donovan's stats?
Personally, I would guess it's a confluence of all these factors. Donovan on the bench would be a distraction, I also think Klinsmann just doesn't like him and doesn't trust him (neither do I, so I can't fault Klinsmann there), and Donovan on the field would be taking minutes away from somebody who might have something to offer down the road.
I think EACH of those reasons is sufficient to make the call Klinsmann did all by itself.
IDK, I'm happy about it, but like I said earlier I've been looking forward to the post-Donovan US team for years.
Renegade
Charge on!
Bolded a key word for you. Based on his league form, it looked like he was over the hill. Guys get old and their talent fades.
Klinsmann has a contract through 2018. He'll be the head coach unless he chooses to leave. Donovan would be a non-factor in 2018, and if it looks like the talent we have coming through the pipeline is enough to be poised for a big run in 2018, then getting some of those kids that look like they could be major contributors some World Cup experience is not a bad deal.
And it could be that Donovan wasn't going to start, and Klinsmann didn't want the distraction of the media asking constantly why not. Davis may not be as good as Landon, but he does have some skills, but I fully expect Bedoya, one of the future key players, to be starting on the left, and it may be better to have it clear that Bedoya will be the starter than a distraction before every game about Bedoya vs Landon.
It would be absurd to leave Donovan off in order to "prepare for 2018" while you also include less talented older players like Wondo and Davis. Also, 4 years is an eternity in sports and I honestly don't think you can plan that far ahead effectively, so it would be an absurd coaching move on a team with talent limitations. If we were talking about a top tier international team with 50+ dudes who have international level talent, then I'd be all for favoring younger players over older players if they were the same level talent.
Looking to the future and including some young talent is a good idea, and I applaud Klinsmann for doing that. I like the inclusion of Green and Yedlin, for example. I just think there are about 8-10 dudes in that 23 man roster dudes who aren't "young" and are less valuable to the team than Landon Donovan would have been.
I agree with you about the myriad of factors that lead him to being left at home, but a primary role of a good coach is to mitigate or eliminate those factors and get your best players on the field, so that's why I consider it a coaching failure.
NML
Well-Known Member
Could you bump that quote of mine for me?
You argued with Travis didn't you? Everybody that opposed travis on this board (first time was an abomination
) was opposing the idea that better athletes would make us better at soccer. That's the only real reason I troll in here sometimes, and you guys get riled up so damn easy. I get the smugness and the knowing you guys are right since most of you have played it a lot and watch it a bunch. I'm the same way with basketball. Doesn't mean I can't have a little fun with it like some people do with me in the NBA thread.
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
Good lord, I actually agree with Travis in a soccer thread. What the fuck?
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Haha, well Wondo and Davis aren't little bitches that are going to be looking for every camera in a 10 mile radius to pout into about why they're not happy during the WC (and in multiple languages).
Like I said, I think Klinsmann is tired of Donovan's shit and just doesn't want him around, in addition to all the other stuff.
I don't know that I agree. A country that has faith in its youth system and its ability to develop talent as it comes up has less incentive to jettison older players and throw everyone into a baptism by fire. That's why Italy, Spain, Portugal, Argentina, etc. always end up at the higher end of the age spectrum for the WC.
I think Klinsmann wants to clear away the old guard in U.S. soccer and start building something new. And I'm all for that. I also don't think he really feels any pressure because he's Jurgen fucking Klinsmann and he doesn't have to bother himself with what US Soccer or Landon Donovan or the MLS think. He wants to do it his way, and I'm a fan. It's not like he's tearing down some venerable institution or anything.
Don't worry, I don't have the energy today. Just explaining why I troll in here to leach so he understands
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
On the whole preparing for 4 years from now, I don't think it makes any sense for the US. 4 years from now, our ceiling is the same as it always is - quarterfinals. Maybe with the right draw, we could get lucky and have a shot at more. But I doubt it. And I don't think that we'll look at this team in 4 years and think that we have a shot at anything beyond the quarterfinals. The odds are that we get drawn into another group of death and are facing the same situation as right now.
NML
Well-Known Member
You argued with Travis didn't you? Everybody that opposed travis on this board (first time was an abomination
I get the smugness and the knowing you guys are right since most of you have played it a lot and watch it a bunch. I'm the same way with basketball. Doesn't mean I can't have a little fun with it like some people do with me in the NBA thread.
I mean do what you want obviously, but there's a reason we never see Milo anymore (even pre-marriage). Even Snorky stays out of this thread. I think when we are losing posters (and good posters at that), that the trolling has gone too far. That just may be Nutopia doe.
I'm not going to rehash that argument again, but ur way off base.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
It's not *just* four years from now, though, as in we're throwing this WC so we can go all in the next time. I think it's just a general shift toward the future of the program.
The idea that the best the U.S. soccer team, despite every advantage in the world, can aspire to is sneaking out of their group is and should be offensive to people around the program, and I feel like Klinsmann is trying to change that by effectively cleaning house with the old way of doing things, by looking heavily to European based players, by dispensing with the notion that anybody in the history of U.S. Soccer is good enough on a world scale to demand inclusion by default, etc.
It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing that the United States of America can't field a more prestigious soccer team, and I'm up for any and all deviations from the status quo to try and figure it out.
The idea that the best the U.S. soccer team, despite every advantage in the world, can aspire to is sneaking out of their group is and should be offensive to people around the program, and I feel like Klinsmann is trying to change that by effectively cleaning house with the old way of doing things, by looking heavily to European based players, by dispensing with the notion that anybody in the history of U.S. Soccer is good enough on a world scale to demand inclusion by default, etc.
It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing that the United States of America can't field a more prestigious soccer team, and I'm up for any and all deviations from the status quo to try and figure it out.
I've only trolled because nobody read the arguments I laid down. I said same/improving skill level but better athletes from the start and all I got back was "bro chad ocho cinco, you can't soccer". So yeah I'm going to troll back to somebody who doesn't read anything someone says. I've had my fun though so you guys can go back to the elephant walk
That's because they had to read the initial argument a while back which basically was Chad Ochocinco can soccer
Yeah which is why i said that was dumb, but on this board i started legit. Then i got frustrated that soccer was different than any other sport, then i ran milo off.
I agree with all of the bolded part, but I think the perfect time to tell Donovan to fuck off was when he decided to hang the US out to dry and go on sabbatical during qualifying. Instead, Klinsmann made the mistake of bringing him back into the squad, where he actually performed really well... then left him off at the last second, saying he wasn't as "good" as the other 23. To me, that's really ham-fisting the situation and is a coaching failure.
In coaching sports, I think tactical level prowess is often over-hyped when strategic level decisions are really what matter. In a sport like soccer where the tactical impact of a coach is further limited by the rules of the sport (running clock game with only 3 subs) the strategic stuff is even MORE important. This Landon Donovan debacle has been ham-fisted since the start and is, IMO, a big strategic blunder on Klinsmann's part. He went with half measures when he should have kicked Donovan out early in the cycle, and it came back to bite him. Now he's going to pay for it (in public opinion at least) if the team doesn't perform well.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
That may be true, but I don't think Klinsmann cares haha. Who in this entire country of 320 million is more qualified than he is to assess his soccer acumen? Nobody.
Question because I don't know: had Klinsmann already been extended when Donovan took his sabbatical? If so, then I agree with you that would have been better timing. If not, then I would argue that changed things substantially in Klinsmann's framework.
As for the OU11 dispute, I wasn't around for it, but from his posts I suspect I'm on his side firmly. I too get very, very sick of U.S. soccer insiders attempting to minimize the effect that soccer being the 4th or 5th sport in America, and thus getting 4th or 5th pick for athletes, has on our international performance.
It should go without saying that having more talented athletes would offer a higher ceiling for the program and that U.S. Soccer's number 1 goal should be broadening the appeal of the sport so basketball and football don't continue poaching every great athlete in America.
Question because I don't know: had Klinsmann already been extended when Donovan took his sabbatical? If so, then I agree with you that would have been better timing. If not, then I would argue that changed things substantially in Klinsmann's framework.
As for the OU11 dispute, I wasn't around for it, but from his posts I suspect I'm on his side firmly. I too get very, very sick of U.S. soccer insiders attempting to minimize the effect that soccer being the 4th or 5th sport in America, and thus getting 4th or 5th pick for athletes, has on our international performance.
It should go without saying that having more talented athletes would offer a higher ceiling for the program and that U.S. Soccer's number 1 goal should be broadening the appeal of the sport so basketball and football don't continue poaching every great athlete in America.
This x 100.
If Klinsmann was dead set on jettisoning Donovan --- and for the sake of argument, say I agree with all the reasons Mak put forth about why he should do that --- then do it when Donovan took his leave and say right then and there that you're dancing with the one(s) who brung you. He was gone when we could've used him, so I'm sticking with the guys who earned our trip to Brazil.
Instead, he calls him into camp, and then tries to sell this load of bullshit about there being 23 players who were "just a little ahead" of Donovan. Like hell there were.
I'm not anti-Klinsmann in the least bit. I was stoked when he got the job, and I love that he's shaking things up and trying to revamp our who setup. The US is never going to win a World Cup doing exactly what we've done in the past.
BUT, I think he fumbled on this particular issue. And, I worry about what a poor showing will do to soccer enthusiasm. The "soccer fags" aren't going anywhere --- we love the sport, and that won't change even if the US team gets donkey punched in the group stage. But a lot of the new, casual fans might think, "meh.....same old shitty US team. Back to foobaw."
Contrary to what OU keeps saying (and what Travis was saying), nobody argued that being a better athlete makes you a worse soccer player. The argument was that a lack of talent/skill was a bigger problem for the US than a lack of athleticism, and that's the area on which US Soccer needed to focus more of its efforts.
The ceiling for a team with the current amount of talent but ridiculous athleticism is lower than for a team with the current amount of athleticism, but a ridiculous amount of talent.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
After doing some looking, Donovan came back from his sabbatical in March of 2013. Klinsmann wasn't officially extended until December 2013.
I suspect there's your answer about the timing. Klinsmann had no incentive to give a shit about the future of U.S. soccer until that extension happened.
You can do both though, it isn't an either or. So that is why I got trollish. I never said "stop teaching them any skills, get guys who can run fast"
Sort of shoots a hole in the argument that Klinsmann doesn't give a fuck what people think of his decisions......doesn't it?
No, but Travis' argument was basically: "we're never going to be any good skill-wise anyway, so fuck that, let's get athletes." If your ultimate goal is quarterfinals.....great. But if you ever want a chance to win the whole thing, you damn well better invest the time and money to make sure our players have the skills to compete with the world's elite.
That doesn't mean purposely look for fat and slow guys who can bend a free kick. Of course we'd all like our players to be stud athletes. But I would hope the training is far more focused on skills than 40 times.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I don't really comprehend the distinction between talent and athleticism you're leaning on though. Soccer is an athletic sport. All the aspects that make someone a great athlete are the same that generate their ceiling as a soccer player. Coordination, speed, quickness, agility, the ability to see the field and anticipate the movements of other people. It's all the same stuff.
The argument isn't that you could just take a bunch of NFL skill players and throw them on the soccer field and have a better team, the argument is that if people of that athletic potential had spent their lives honing their soccer skills rather than their football skills, we wouldn't be relying on puds like Landon Donovan at the top of the goal charts.
Further, it just seems like common sense that a country like the US, that dominates the world in any sport it chooses, can pretty much only point at the appeal of the sport itself as a reason for its inability to field a world class soccer team.
Soccer gets 4th or 5th crack at the athletes in America, and the effects of that are obvious.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Why? What it does is alter the calculus of what Klinsmann himself thinks. If he's out after this WC then what the fuck does he care whether Donovan steals caps from the young guys? But if he's going to be around in 2018 too, then he has an incentive to look to the future.
The thing is you don't train a 40 time. You can fine tune it but you don't take a 4.6 guy and train him to be 4.3. You get the 4.3 guy and train his skills to be as good as the 4.6 guy. Better player, quaterfinals, boom
I mentioned this earlier, but Mak wasn't around for it. I understand why US soccer fans are leery of the "athleticism" argument, because there was a time when US Soccer trended toward superior athletes with underdeveloped soccer skills. Certain players were selected for athleticism but their skills were never fully developed, and they didn't pan out at the international level... They just ran past competition at lower levels, so nobody ever turned them into soccer players because their athleticism was good enough to get by. When they hit the international competition level, shear athleticism wasn't good enough anymore. That is shitty coaching, IMO.
US Soccer fan sees the results of that shitty coaching and creates a false dichotomy where players can be either skilled or athletic but not both and you have to pick a side. OU and I (other than some trolling) have been fighting the good fight and saying that better athletes can become better players (in my experience better athletes actually become skilled FASTER if they are well coached). The historic faults of US soccer was not in picking athletic kids... but in the lack of development of those athletic kids.
I'm over that issue because OU and I get accused of trolling when there was at least as much trolling from the other side (or just shear ignorance).
US Soccer fan sees the results of that shitty coaching and creates a false dichotomy where players can be either skilled or athletic but not both and you have to pick a side. OU and I (other than some trolling) have been fighting the good fight and saying that better athletes can become better players (in my experience better athletes actually become skilled FASTER if they are well coached). The historic faults of US soccer was not in picking athletic kids... but in the lack of development of those athletic kids.
I'm over that issue because OU and I get accused of trolling when there was at least as much trolling from the other side (or just shear ignorance).
Substitute "talent" for "skills" if that helps you. You can be an Olympic sprinter, and still unable to dribble a soccer ball. You can have a vertical like Westbrook, but not be able to put a header on target.
Again, no one is arguing that being a better athlete (the cliche bigger, faster, stronger model) would hurt. Of course that would be beneficial. If soccer lured more kids away from the other sports at an early age, the talent pool for the USMNT to choose from would be a lot larger. Great! That's what we want.
But as has been said repeatedly, a lack of athleticism isn't what's holding the US team back right now. Look at some of the most dominant players in the world. Ronaldo is a freakish athlete. Messi......no. Great agility, but who's going to look at him standing next to Jozy and say, "yep, that Messi guy is clearly the more athletic player." He's great because of his skills. Xavi is an old man. And a smallish old man lacking pace, at that. But the dude can do some remarkable things with the ball at his feet. Does Gerrard strike you as overly athletic? Is he a better athlete than Bradley or Jones? I'd say no; he's just more skilled. Pirlo is like 75 years old now, and can still dominate a game at the highest level.
Bigger, faster, stronger helps. No question. All else being equal, give me the better athlete. Go find all the athletic kids you can, and convince them to play soccer. Build up the size of the youth academies. "Steal" kids from other sports. But then teach them the proper skills.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Haha, thanks for filling me in. It's interesting, I've always chocked up the indignation to the athleticism argument to a bunch of slow whiteys who represent U.S. soccer culture clinging desperately to the belief that soccer was somehow "above" the primitive implications of athleticism. They insist there is something "special" about soccer that can't be calculated or analyzed the way we analyze the neanderthals who occupy football and basketball rosters. Part and parcel of the kind of snobby "in-crowd" mentality I so often come across in American soccer circles (and MMA circles as well while we're on the subject).
But no. You teach Devin Hester to kick a soccer ball instead of catching a football and his ceiling is world class. Surely that's obvious.
There is ZERO reason the skills that make someone a top flight football skill player wouldn't translate to a soccer field assuming equal effort and coaching.
Unless I missed it, NOBODY has said you have to pick one or the other. The argument seems to have been which is more important. And unless you've since changed your stance, you were arguing that the US is "never going to catch up in terms of skills anyway," so the focus needs to be on athleticism.
I disagree. The focus needs to be on learning the skills to compete with the best teams. Of course we want to attract the best athletes we can, but if you don't teach them how to play -- and start at an early age -- that athleticism won't mean shit (thus the Chad Ochocinco trolling).
jdlikewhoa
Well-Known Member
Back to this discussion again?
Renegade
Charge on!
How Jurgen Klinsmann Plans to Make U.S. Soccer Better (and Less American)
Long article from the NY Times Magazine - http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/08/m...-us-soccer-better-and-less-american.html?_r=0
Long article from the NY Times Magazine - http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/08/m...-us-soccer-better-and-less-american.html?_r=0
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Dribbling and heading are skills that can be trained into people though, that's the point. As OU said, you can't train a 4.9 into a 4.3.
You teach the 4.3 athlete to play soccer, you can't teach the 4.9 soccer player to be an athlete.
I don't think that's one iota different from the argument I'm making.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
I agree. But you also don't steal a stud athlete from the high school or college football team and train him to be an elite soccer player at that point in life. If the US is going to compete with Spain, France, Germany, etc., our players better start learning those skills at an early age. And good luck identifying who the best athletes will be when they're 6 years old and have barely developed physically. So you need as many kids as you can learning the sport that early. EVERY little kid plays soccer at an early age in other countries. That's why it WILL always be tough for the US, so long as soccer is the 4th or 5th most popular sport.
Except that all else isn't always equal. Skill sets aren't equal across the board. If the 4.9 40 guy is a better passer, dribbler, and shooter than the 4.3 guy....I probably want the 4.9 guy on my team. Again, no one is arguing that athleticism is a bad thing. But athleticism doesn't trump talent/skills, and if you're forced to choose which is more important, I'm going with talent/skills.
Ughhh... TM sucking me in again.
My argument was that I can at least understand why the US is less skilled than other nations (and we are working to close that gap). Our youth sports model doesn't lend itself to skill development as the youth development models of other nations. I think unless that fundamentally changes, our skills will be forever capped at "competitive at international level" but not "best international" like a Spain. I can understand and forgive having less skilled players than soccer obsessed nations. I think that we have improved the coaching infrastructure and the ability to send our best players overseas for international training, so this "cap" is moving to where we now have players like Dempsey, Bradley, etc who are skilled enough to compete (though they aren't the MOST skilled players at their positions either). I simply don't see a path to ever become the most SKILLED soccer playing nation.
I cannot forgive the US being the least ATHLETIC team in the group, because there is no good excuse for that in a country as large and diverse as ours. The athleticism is where we could gain the advantage, becoming the most athletic soccer playing nation is something we could do... as long as we get those athletes coached up to the point where they are competitive, their athleticism will put them over the top.
And fwiw, there were several people who said athleticism/skills were etiher/or. Chibob was one of them, and I believe Deadmong was as well.
Anyway when we win the 2038 world cup, it will be with a bunch of players like Gareth Bale, YaYa Toure, and Lukaku.... not players like xavi, iniesta, and Pirlo.
My argument was that I can at least understand why the US is less skilled than other nations (and we are working to close that gap). Our youth sports model doesn't lend itself to skill development as the youth development models of other nations. I think unless that fundamentally changes, our skills will be forever capped at "competitive at international level" but not "best international" like a Spain. I can understand and forgive having less skilled players than soccer obsessed nations. I think that we have improved the coaching infrastructure and the ability to send our best players overseas for international training, so this "cap" is moving to where we now have players like Dempsey, Bradley, etc who are skilled enough to compete (though they aren't the MOST skilled players at their positions either). I simply don't see a path to ever become the most SKILLED soccer playing nation.
I cannot forgive the US being the least ATHLETIC team in the group, because there is no good excuse for that in a country as large and diverse as ours. The athleticism is where we could gain the advantage, becoming the most athletic soccer playing nation is something we could do... as long as we get those athletes coached up to the point where they are competitive, their athleticism will put them over the top.
And fwiw, there were several people who said athleticism/skills were etiher/or. Chibob was one of them, and I believe Deadmong was as well.
Anyway when we win the 2038 world cup, it will be with a bunch of players like Gareth Bale, YaYa Toure, and Lukaku.... not players like xavi, iniesta, and Pirlo.
The bolded is the bullshit that kept being falsely attributed to me. You don't need to steal him from the high school or college football team. You need to stop the high school or college football team from stealing him from soccer. Soccer is the most popular youth sport in this country. Soccer in this country starts with most of the athletes and then progressively LOSE them to other sports.
Travis, I agree with all of that except one part --- I don't think the US is at a big disadvantage athletically. Who says we're the least athletic team in the group? Least skilled maybe (it's either us or Ghana)...but least athletic? No way. We have athletes on the roster. What we don't have are many guys with Bradley/Dempsey skills; guys that could hold their own in respectable Euro leagues.