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2016-17 NBA Season: no IT ITT
- Thread starter silverwheels
- Start date
DanishDonut0
Well-Known Member
He's never going to win anything besides STATS. I can't imagine anyone else wanting to play around him outside of washed up shooters or rookies. As a fan it's already hard enough to watch him take contested elbow jumpers and deep threes over and over with the % he actually hits them, can't imagine how that would be as an NBA player.
I'd rather build my team around Gordon Hayward
I'd rather build my team around Gordon Hayward
This is true, and it is circular. What I'm saying is they just lost Durant and if they play the way you're describing then long term it's better for sure. But this year they would have missed the playoffs and just been shitty to watch. So this year, I'd let him run just because it's a precarious time for the franchise.
Next year though, he needs to assume a more (and I can't believe I'm saying this, I guess he needs to average 15 assists) normal PG role. Maybe he can learn to be an off-ball guard. They need to get new players if they want to run an offense that goes through someone else even if it's a few possessions though.
Doing that though means Presti needs to put on his robe and wizard hat and trade out the supporting players or he needs to trade Westbrook now. Because if you tell Westbrook to chill out and he doesn't win he's gone anyway.
Brick
Well-Known Member
this is sooooooo bad
Yeah, about 4 of those are indefensible, holy shit.
evil1
Well-Known Member
I call bullshit on the usage % argument (more so against how it is used in general than NML hisself). In particular, people who throw out the usage % argument don't discuss a fundamental question, namely is a high usage % bad?
The NBA player with the highest career usage % is Michael Jordan, a.k.a. the greatest player of all time (LeBron is 7th). In playoff career usage %, Jordan is again #1 all time (LeBron is 6th). So if the greatest NBA player of all time is also the player with the highest usage %, why are people automatically equating usage % as being something bad?
All a high usage % indicates is that the offense is being primarily run through that player. Well, we already knew that OKC was running their offense through Westbrook to a high degree. Usage % really isn't telling us anything new. The real question is whether OKC had any better options during this season and playoffs. IMO, no they didn't.
Because of Durant's departure, there was a huge turnover in OKC's roster this season. By my count, only 6 players returned from last year's team (including Westbrook). Three of their current players are rookies and another three are players were acquired via a mid-season trade this season. That is a huge amount of turnover.
It should also be noted that among the returning OKC players, Roberson, Kanter and Steve Adams all saw their usage percentage increase this year (rotation players Collison and Singler were about the same). Even Taj Gibson saw a slight uptick in his usage % when he joined OKC. So Westbrook wasn't taking away opportunities from the other OKC players (in fact, they saw their usage increase), instead Westbrook was picking up the slack caused by the massive roster upheaval. IMO, he did the best job anyone could have asked for given the circumstances.
The NBA player with the highest career usage % is Michael Jordan, a.k.a. the greatest player of all time (LeBron is 7th). In playoff career usage %, Jordan is again #1 all time (LeBron is 6th). So if the greatest NBA player of all time is also the player with the highest usage %, why are people automatically equating usage % as being something bad?
All a high usage % indicates is that the offense is being primarily run through that player. Well, we already knew that OKC was running their offense through Westbrook to a high degree. Usage % really isn't telling us anything new. The real question is whether OKC had any better options during this season and playoffs. IMO, no they didn't.
Because of Durant's departure, there was a huge turnover in OKC's roster this season. By my count, only 6 players returned from last year's team (including Westbrook). Three of their current players are rookies and another three are players were acquired via a mid-season trade this season. That is a huge amount of turnover.
It should also be noted that among the returning OKC players, Roberson, Kanter and Steve Adams all saw their usage percentage increase this year (rotation players Collison and Singler were about the same). Even Taj Gibson saw a slight uptick in his usage % when he joined OKC. So Westbrook wasn't taking away opportunities from the other OKC players (in fact, they saw their usage increase), instead Westbrook was picking up the slack caused by the massive roster upheaval. IMO, he did the best job anyone could have asked for given the circumstances.
Russel does. So that means you trade him now or let him walk for free.
Yep. They made small market gambles, and they're hoping they work out. They only have one year though.
I'm Hinke's biggest fan, I would love for them to play this realistically and just suck so Westbrook can go to the Lakers. But that's the choice for the Thudner, either let Westbrook try his hardest to win every game he can or tell him to lose and alienate him.
LeBrin the GOAT,OAT
kanter cant guard a graveyard tho
sayo
YEET
That doesn't mean he's a bum or completely unplayable. Just means the team needs to put him in situations where he can succeed. Ideally, he should be shredding second units.
I still don't know why Donovan went away from him. When Westbrook was off the court they were -58 or something, and while he wasn't shooting well I think he brings that number up more if he plays through the slump in games 1 and 2. Even with Harden slicing him up like silverwheels on prep duty
Brick
Well-Known Member
Harden and Durant probably left because they didn't want to play with ball hog guy at the YMCA or college rec center. There's no better microcosm of that than this series. There is no fucking reason at all for him to shoot 18 threes in a game. He's not Steph Curry (who didn't even attempt 18 in any game this season). He was 13-48 (26.8%) in the series. He is a career 31% three point shooter. I'm not going to argue about his merits of being the best player in the NBA or MVP (I just don't really care). But I still hate on his ugly game and the insistence that he *needs* to have the ball in his hands that much. And that definitely contributes to the fact that they suck really hard when he's off the court. Rhythm is a real thing in basketball.
on defense?
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Yeah, Bestbrook needs to quit being a ballhog and let Nick Collison in on the action. SINGLERRRRRRRR
Brick
Well-Known Member
Oh, I don't know, multiple players with NBA skills making a six or seven figure salaries? That's not a legitimate question. Just like when the Cavs had LeBron and nothing else, it's really easy to back on the ridiculous argument that everyone else on the team "sucks".
It'd help our case if you would use players who actually play. It would have the same effect as saying Nick Collison so there's no reason not to just use the starters' names.
How about Oladipo, who averaged 15.9 PPG this year and shot better from 3 point range? Or Adams? Or Kanter? Or yeah, McDermott, who is better 3 point shooter than RUSS? Or maybe they could get better players, but no one wants to play with a glorified chucker who HAS to have the ball in his hands or is "alienated."
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Fair point. Let's have Roberson shoot 15 times a game.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
The rest of them are playing against air.
He's only alienated if they don't try to win
They shot 31% from 3 this year as a team without RUSS. McDermott got torched so he lost favor quick, and he got hurt if memory serves. Kanter can't play a lot due to defense, Adams can make layups. Dipo was very hot or cold, but I doubt you watched the games aside from maybe the playoffs. He either was decent or went 3-17.
Yes you could put the ball in any of their hands more, and they would be worse.
sayo
YEET
It's at least fair to say he could distribute more and allow other players to contribute... Maybe?
How much more
[xtable]
{caption}Assist Pct{/caption}
{tbody}
{tr}
{td}1.{/td}
{td}Russell Westbrook • OKC{/td}
{td}57.3{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2.{/td}
{td}James Harden • HOU{/td}
{td}50.7{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}3.{/td}
{td}John Wall • WAS{/td}
{td}46.9{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}4.{/td}
{td}Chris Paul • LAC{/td}
{td}46.8{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}5.{/td}
{td}LeBron James • CLE{/td}
{td}41.3{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}6.{/td}
{td}Ricky Rubio • MIN{/td}
{td}38.9{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}7.{/td}
{td}T.J. McConnell • PHI{/td}
{td}37.5{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}8.{/td}
{td}Rajon Rondo • CHI{/td}
{td}37.0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}9.{/td}
{td}Jeff Teague • IND{/td}
{td}36.4{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}10.{/td}
{td}Deron Williams • TOT{/td}
{td}35.9{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}11.{/td}
{td}Jrue Holiday • NOP{/td}
{td}35.9{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}12.{/td}
{td}Elfrid Payton • ORL{/td}
{td}35.7{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}13.{/td}
{td}Dennis Schroder • ATL{/td}
{td}35.5{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}14.{/td}
{td}Sergio Rodriguez • PHI{/td}
{td}35.4{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}15.{/td}
{td}Mike Conley • MEM{/td}
{td}34.5{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}16.{/td}
{td}Ish Smith • DET{/td}
{td}32.5{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}17.{/td}
{td}Isaiah Thomas • BOS{/td}
{td}32.5{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}18.{/td}
{td}Tim Frazier • NOP{/td}
{td}31.4{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}19.{/td}
{td}Stephen Curry • GSW{/td}
{td}31.1{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}20.{/td}
{td}Eric Bledsoe • PHO{/td}
{td}31.1{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
They would have won the ship for sure if he took his usage down to 34%
Idk. Maybe don't take 18 3s as a 25% 3pt shooter.
So we're only talking the one series then. I can't keep up
I don't understand how people don't get this unless they just absolutely hate him or his style of play. If that's all of you then fine, I know it's brick for sure.
The Thunder would lose him for nothing if they didn't let him try his hardest to win. Before this they had Durant and so he could be told it was better for the team, but now you can't do that. It's not better for the team in game 1, then game 2 all the way to 82 for him to defer a lot more. They had 3 streaky shooters who put up 33%+. One they got at the trade deadline.
Do you trade him before this season? You have to if you don't let him do this. If you tell him not to give his team the best chance to win night in and night out so that in 2-3 years they'll be better what do you think he says?
The Thunder would lose him for nothing if they didn't let him try his hardest to win. Before this they had Durant and so he could be told it was better for the team, but now you can't do that. It's not better for the team in game 1, then game 2 all the way to 82 for him to defer a lot more. They had 3 streaky shooters who put up 33%+. One they got at the trade deadline.
Do you trade him before this season? You have to if you don't let him do this. If you tell him not to give his team the best chance to win night in and night out so that in 2-3 years they'll be better what do you think he says?
View attachment 4139
This is not a problem exclusive to having "no support". He was objectively the worst offensive player on that Finals team, and he still chose to chuck it up more than anyone else.
Agreed
I'm not talking about Adams shooting threes lol. Yeah, he can dunk, make layups, and be involved in the pick and roll. He's a big ogre mong, what else are you expecting from him? He's the reason they even won a playoff game this year, because Mr. Hero Ball was too busy clanking threes and free throws off the rim in the 4th. He seems like a decent enough big man. Maybe Oladipo was inconsistent because he wasn't consistently involved. I don't know, you're right in that I only watched like 2-3 games outside the playoffs. Regardless, his eFG was better than RUSS' this year, so I don't buy the argument that there was no one that could make a shot on the Thudner. The lone playoff game they won this year was when the supporting cast was more involved and showed up. Maybe they got lucky and just happened to be firing on all cylinders that day, but it seems to indicate something.
I didn't say that, but he was very streaky. And he always got shots when he was healthy, that was his role. Abrines too. They got more open 3s than any team in the league.
silverwheels
PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
Yeah, the way it's being presented, it sounds like it would way more beneficial for the Thudner to trade RUSS. I'm sure the ERZZZZ or whomever would give up a lot for him that they could build a better team long term with.
Then again, this is the franchise that once had 3 of the current top 7-8 players in the NBA and managed to fuck that up.
Then again, this is the franchise that once had 3 of the current top 7-8 players in the NBA and managed to fuck that up.
GuyIncognito
pressure cooker full of skittles
Insofar as trading a guy rather than letting him walk for nothing and then letting a guy walk for nothing rather than trading him can both be wrong, sure. But that kinda proves my point.
idk what games ya'll watching, but the ones i saw, he was at the top, and everybody else was just standing there
im not sure what you want him to do in that instance when they pack the paint like that and he kicks it out and either they brick it or pump fake pump fake, dribble, then pick up dribble
for as talented as everyone is trying to make Oladipo be, there were too many possessions where he was just sitting there and not moving when there were obvious lanes for him to cut.
im not sure what you want him to do in that instance when they pack the paint like that and he kicks it out and either they brick it or pump fake pump fake, dribble, then pick up dribble
for as talented as everyone is trying to make Oladipo be, there were too many possessions where he was just sitting there and not moving when there were obvious lanes for him to cut.