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WBL Rule Change Thread

doh

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
So a $0 scout/dev budgets guy is really a spend in those guy now?

It's interesting what's happened with IFA. It used to be you could get really good players for $2-3m now that'll get you a future bench player. People have caught on. On the flip side of that, the hit rate in IFA is pretty high vs. the draft with high risk/reward.

Draft IMO is about the same maybe a tick worse since we have two extra teams.

Undervalued place right now is FA. Lots of gems every year you can get especially while everyone else is in IFA.
 
NML

NML

Well-Known Member
What I'm saying is

1) being better doesn't (and shouldn't) guarantee you win.

2) just because team a wins 110 games and team b wins 90, doesn't mean that team a is a better playoff team. To win 105+ games, you need five good to great pitchers and depth in case of injury. You can get away with three good starters for the playoffs and just being healthy at the right time.

3) teams that get a 1 seed already have a massive advantage - it's just not in the playoffs. It's the following seasons when they have a huge budget and more money to spend.

I don't think the playoffs are a total crapshoot, there are just small margins between the 1 seed and 4 seeds, and a lot of that has to do with how much depth you have and how many injuries you've dealt with.

I'm also not in favor of any rule that gives teams with 2.5 times the budget of other teams any more of an advantage. You'll turn people off from the league that way.
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
TonyGin&Juice said:
Do teams that are #1 seeds not have the highest ticket prices and attendance?
Click to expand...

They do, I'm not understanding what you're getting at. Let me ask you this, would it add incentive to get the 1 seed if you saw more money from that than the 4 seed?

If your answer is yes, we agree. If your answer is no, why don't you like money?
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
NML said:
What I'm saying is

1) being better doesn't (and shouldn't) guarantee you win.

2) just because team a wins 110 games and team b wins 90, doesn't mean that team a is a better playoff team. To win 105+ games, you need five good to great pitchers and depth in case of injury. You can get away with three good starters for the playoffs and just being healthy at the right time.

3) teams that get a 1 seed already have a massive advantage - it's just not in the playoffs. It's the following seasons when they have a huge budget and more money to spend.

I don't think the playoffs are a total crapshoot, there are just small margins between the 1 seed and 4 seeds, and a lot of that has to do with how much depth you have and how many injuries you've dealt with.

I'm also not in favor of any rule that gives teams with 2.5 times the budget of other teams any more of an advantage. You'll turn people off from the league that way.
Click to expand...

I doubt any rule like that would get passed. I don't think being better is smart anymore is the point. I think being worse but being in the playoffs gives you just as good of a chance as being great does now with the added benefit of having money to spend on budgets/IFA.

We'll see if I'm wrong soon enough, hell I could attempt this as early as whatever year comes after next year if I rush my plan
 
NML

NML

Well-Known Member
To me it seems like ur describing the Travis approach to me

I guess whether or not you think he's had success depends on ur definition of the word
 
doh

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
NML said:
What I'm saying is

1) being better doesn't (and shouldn't) guarantee you win.

2) just because team a wins 110 games and team b wins 90, doesn't mean that team a is a better playoff team. To win 105+ games, you need five good to great pitchers and depth in case of injury. You can get away with three good starters for the playoffs and just being healthy at the right time.

3) teams that get a 1 seed already have a massive advantage - it's just not in the playoffs. It's the following seasons when they have a huge budget and more money to spend.

I don't think the playoffs are a total crapshoot, there are just small margins between the 1 seed and 4 seeds, and a lot of that has to do with how much depth you have and how many injuries you've dealt with.

I'm also not in favor of any rule that gives teams with 2.5 times the budget of other teams any more of an advantage. You'll turn people off from the league that way.
Click to expand...
My wins for my playoff teams:

101, 93, 91, 94, 97, 103, 108, 108, 106, 111, 104, 88, 100, 110, 110, 111, 108

Bolded/underlined teams are the teams that won the SHIP. No -- it's not a crap shoot.

It's not fair to give the teams that win the most games more advantages in the playoffs? That makes no sense.
 
NML

NML

Well-Known Member
doh said:
My wins for my playoff teams:

101, 93, 91, 94, 97, 103, 108, 108, 106, 111, 104, 88, 100, 110, 110, 111, 108

Bolded/underlined teams are the teams that won the SHIP. No -- it's not a crap shoot.

It's not fair to give the teams that win the most games more advantages in the playoffs? That makes no sense.
Click to expand...

Okay, let's give the 1 seeds a bye, but everyone gets the same budget. Deal?
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
doh said:
So a $0 scout/dev budgets guy is really a spend in those guy now?
Click to expand...

I don't see the point in doing what you and wooly are doing, what do you have to show for it? Being worse but still good enough to make it and dumping everybody when its time seems a lot better. I'm not sold on spending on scouts yet, I'm relying solely on Zo so we'll see how he does after a few years. If he still sucks then I can cut that out, but I'm keeping the dev budget up from now on. I saw a lot more guys bust than I used to with the baseline dev budget, barely any made it out even with great ratings as young guys. I'm expecting a lot more starters out of my current farm
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
NML said:
Okay, let's give the 1 seeds a bye, but everyone gets the same budget. Deal?
Click to expand...

No deal. Just for the 1 seed bye though. If same budgets passed I'd be cool, it'd make the league boring for me personally but I would mind that much less.
 
doh

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
I have no idea why you're even arguing that. There are tons of things in this league vs. how it could be that help lower teams.

-- TV contracts are all essentially even.
-- Cash is limited to $10m.
-- Draft rewards the worst teams.
 
Mr. Radpants

Mr. Radpants

Trog Five Standing By
doh said:
My wins for my playoff teams:

101, 93, 91, 94, 97, 103, 108, 108, 106, 111, 104, 88, 100, 110, 110, 111, 108

Bolded/underlined teams are the teams that won the SHIP. No -- it's not a crap shoot.

It's not fair to give the teams that win the most games more advantages in the playoffs? That makes no sense.
Click to expand...

Just give @doh a championship whenever he breaks his personal win total.
 
NML

NML

Well-Known Member
doh said:
I have no idea why you're even arguing that. There are tons of things in this league vs. how it could be that help lower teams.

-- TV contracts are all essentially even.
-- Cash is limited to $10m.
-- Draft rewards the worst teams.
Click to expand...

Ur point is that there is no advantage to being the 1 vs the 4. But that's wrong, ur budget is significantly higher for the next season.
 
doh

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
OU11 said:
I don't see the point in doing what you and wooly are doing, what do you have to show for it? Being worse but still good enough to make it and dumping everybody when its time seems a lot better. I'm not sold on spending on scouts yet, I'm relying solely on Zo so we'll see how he does after a few years. If he still sucks then I can cut that out, but I'm keeping the dev budget up from now on. I saw a lot more guys bust than I used to with the baseline dev budget, barely any made it out even with great ratings as young guys. I'm expecting a lot more starters out of my current farm
Click to expand...
I messed up IFA last year. I've been spending in scouting/devo for a while.

I thought having a strong bench (and particularly guys like Rivera/Montgomery) on the bench would help in the playoffs (and my sliders ask to use them to PH) but they both barely played which was a bit frustrating. I'm trying to hold onto the guys I drafted or signed and developed as long as I can. I've never really had this many good players who I felt were "mine" from the start. So I figured that I should try to win as much as possible.

The rebuild was way more fun but I can't bottom out without losing my core guys (Lorenzo Rod, Kang, Mordisini, Gale, Tamburrino, Hernandes) so I'd rather see the stats they can put up and see how many games I can win.
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
NML said:
Ur point is that there is no advantage to being the 1 vs the 4. But that's wrong, ur budget is significantly higher for the next season.
Click to expand...
Unless it's your first year being the 1 seed, then ur budget is significantly higher 2 years later but only if you don't raise ticket prices because then you're 3 years out.
 
doh

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
NML said:
Ur point is that there is no advantage to being the 1 vs the 4. But that's wrong, ur budget is significantly higher for the next season.
Click to expand...
Ur points keep on going to economics. I do not care about economics in this argument.
 
Orlando

Orlando

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
OU11 said:
So let me try to clarify here since I'm confused. You thought they won more than they used to but only in live sims and simultaneously also think they don't win more often overall?

I'll just let it be, but whatever version (16 or 17) that we both agreed something changed way back, talent seemed to matter less while just making it to the playoffs mattered more.

There is no reason to try for the 1 seed, it's as good as the 4 in terms of winning the playoffs. And I do feel there is a talent discrepancy most years from the 1 and the 4 or even the 1 and the 3.
Click to expand...
I thought the live sims were much more volatile than the regular sims. I also thought the talent level just plummeted in general lagging from the late 40's through the 50's. The win/loss column also doesn't always reflect talent because we have a very late trade deadline.

Each year and team is super unique. @doh has had some very poor luck with late season injuries. A 4-seed Tanner team won who was really young and won as a 1-seed the following year. Yankee's win as a 4 was a similar story. Two doh teams won as 4's and he always built for the playoffs. One of which was 2045. I won as a 4 with 102 wins, so I don't think you can say there was much of a talent gap there. You won as a 3 with 100 wins. Same story. We did have a number of 4's in a row though.

Here they are:

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While I do agree winning the league doesn't have many perks, being a 4-seed type team year after year is pretty risky. One-seeds are in a pretty bad drought though too haha.
 
doh

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
fignuts said:
If being a 1-seed has become that boring for you, then it may be time to tear the whole thing down or move onto another game.
Click to expand...
Never said it was boring. Said the end of the season can be boring so thinking of a way to spice it up and reward people for being better.

I've tried out different strategies with roster construction. I think I may go radically one way this year.
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
doh said:
I messed up IFA last year. I've been spending in scouting/devo for a while.

I thought having a strong bench (and particularly guys like Rivera/Montgomery) on the bench would help in the playoffs (and my sliders ask to use them to PH) but they both barely played which was a bit frustrating. I'm trying to hold onto the guys I drafted or signed and developed as long as I can. I've never really had this many good players who I felt were "mine" from the start. So I figured that I should try to win as much as possible.

The rebuild was way more fun but I can't bottom out without losing my core guys (Lorenzo Rod, Kang, Mordisini, Gale, Tamburrino, Hernandes) so I'd rather see the stats they can put up and see how many games I can win.
Click to expand...

Well they did overhaul the AI so I'm hopeful the sim engine also makes smarter decisions in 18. I don't really care about that because I don't know enough about baseball to really understand what is dumb about it. It's hard not to keep them it's just inefficient now. The era I'm talking about is like early 50s and back, so it's been a long time since I thought having the most talented team mattered at all. I just didn't want to play until a season ago, so I haven't tried to implement a new strategy.
 
NML

NML

Well-Known Member
Has OU read any of Travis's posts? Travis has been a perennial 2/3 seed for over a decade now while focusing on IFA and development and has exactly zero WS titles to show for it.

Lots of flags on mount 500 though!
 
W

Wolfman21

Well-Known Member
NML said:
Has OU read any of Travis's posts? Travis has been a perennial 2/3 seed for over a decade now while focusing on IFA and development and has exactly zero WS titles to show for it.

Lots of flags on mount 500 though!
Click to expand...

Just because you are a good team doesnt mean youre destined to win a ship.
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Orlando said:
I thought the live sims were much more volatile than the regular sims. I also thought the talent level just plummeted in general lagging from the late 40's through the 50's. The win/loss column also doesn't always reflect talent because we have a very late trade deadline.

Each year and team is super unique. @doh has had some very poor luck with late season injuries. A 4-seed Tanner team won who was really young and won as a 1-seed the following year. Yankee's win as a 4 was a similar story. Two doh teams won as 4's and he always built for the playoffs. One of which was 2045. I won as a 4 with 102 wins, so I don't think you can say there was much of a talent gap there. You won as a 3 with 100 wins. Same story. We did have a number of 4's in a row though.

Here they are:


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While I do agree winning the league doesn't have many perks, being a 4-seed type team year after year is pretty risky. One-seeds are in a pretty bad drought though too haha.
Click to expand...

So yeah, there's no point in trying to be the best. I guess a better way to put it would be it used to be beneficial (moreso IMO) to build without care for the minors and to use all your monies to really fill your squad with talent. And maybe it was just because we had half the league tanking or not playing that made it seem like talent mattered more before, it's been 20 years so like I said it could be confirmation bias.

But watching the league for the last 5-6 years I don't think having the most talent matters at all, and I think playing for the 1 seed puts you at a major disadvantage due to opportunity cost for doing it. When the league has 4 100 win teams in one division you're going to be knocked out, but aside from that you'll be in it and your farm will be a lot healthier than it would be otherwise. Given 1 seeds never win, or rather win like 6% of the time just get that 3-4 seed.

Could have been that way the whole time, it's not worth arguing about.
 
NML

NML

Well-Known Member
Wolfman21 said:
Just because you are a good team doesnt mean youre destined to win a ship.
Click to expand...

Not sure what ur tom bout

OU has been saying that he thinks the best strategy is to just make the playoffs every year but spend in IFA instead to moving to 100 wins from 95. That was Travis's EXACT plan haha
 
Orlando

Orlando

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
OU11 said:
I'd rather spend the money now on IFA/dev/scout budgets. Much more than I thought used to be worth it. I think that's a better use than trying to be a playoff lock.
Click to expand...
c7NJRa2.gif


OU11 said:
A big reason I think it doesn't matter is because of the revenue not being used from the playoffs. Even if it just added 50% to the following year's budget or something it'd make it worth while to get the 1 seed. You'd see tangible benefits from those home games even if you lost. I think, I'm not sure how the money is split now.
Click to expand...
It has always been split between both teams.

doh said:
On the flip side of that, the hit rate in IFA is pretty high vs. the draft with high risk/reward.
Click to expand...
You have lost your mind.
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
NML said:
Has OU read any of Travis's posts? Travis has been a perennial 2/3 seed for over a decade now while focusing on IFA and development and has exactly zero WS titles to show for it.

Lots of flags on mount 500 though!
Click to expand...

I he's actually the reason I changed my thought process, I think he's just missing that luck. I didn't say being the 2/3 seed would let you win every year just that you'd have just as good (actually much better) of a chance as the 1 seeds
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Orlando said:
It has always been split between both teams.
Click to expand...

It may have been all the way back in 14 or something but I thought there was a larger split for home teams at one point. I do remember when gooksta went off it was 50/50 though :laughing:
 
doh

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
I think big IFA buys are the best players in the league but I haven't really looked into it.. I should bring back the "where the best players came from" post.
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
doh said:
I think big IFA buys are the best players in the league but I haven't really looked into it.. I should bring back the "where the best players came from" post.
Click to expand...

They probably are now but going forward I hope to see a much more even split since we lengthened the college/hs seasons. We had it so low they didn't ever develop :laughing:
 
NML

NML

Well-Known Member
OU11 said:
I he's actually the reason I changed my thought process, I think he's just missing that luck. I didn't say being the 2/3 seed would let you win every year just that you'd have just as good (actually much better) of a chance as the 1 seeds
Click to expand...

Right but he didn't
 
Orlando

Orlando

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
OU11 said:
I don't see the point in doing what you and wooly are doing, what do you have to show for it? Being worse but still good enough to make it and dumping everybody when its time seems a lot better. I'm not sold on spending on scouts yet, I'm relying solely on Zo so we'll see how he does after a few years. If he still sucks then I can cut that out, but I'm keeping the dev budget up from now on. I saw a lot more guys bust than I used to with the baseline dev budget, barely any made it out even with great ratings as young guys. I'm expecting a lot more starters out of my current farm
Click to expand...
This is basically what i have always done, sans spending on a scout. We'll see how that works out for you. Like I said being a middle 3 team (4 seed) and being a playoff lock are the difference here. If you can be a top 3 team for a long time and control your budget you will do well. Looking back on history, I didn't win the league all the much, but I don't think anyone would say my teams were worse than the teams who did.
NML said:
Has OU read any of Travis's posts? Travis has been a perennial 2/3 seed for over a decade now while focusing on IFA and development and has exactly zero WS titles to show for it.

Lots of flags on mount 500 though!
Click to expand...
I'd argue that has been my strategy too.
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
NML said:
Right but he didn't
Click to expand...

Right but he had a better chance than 1 seeds. Idk what your strategy is but it's better than trying for a 1 seed. I thought your team was really mediocre when you won it but that's what you have to do to have a chance in the WBL. Be mediocre and hope you get lucky.
 
osick87

osick87

Well-Known Member
Community Liaison
doh said:
Interesting too... I think we've had less of those in the game (maybe because people are spending less than before on budget).

I'm going to try to revive that old post or where players come from tonight.
Click to expand...

My scouting discoveries have been pretty great as of late (OOTP 17 is likely the reason). I send @Travis7401 screenshots.


http://utopia.allsimbaseball9.com/game/lgreports//players/player_7438.html

http://utopia.allsimbaseball9.com/game/lgreports//players/player_3954.html
 
doh

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
osick87 said:
My scouting discoveries have been pretty great as of late (OOTP 17 is likely the reason). I send @Travis7401 screenshots.
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Have you been spending? I think most teams aren't spending much anymore. I was at $2m last year but may up that this year vs. spend on bench players/#5SP/etc..
 
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