Conte da best and Batshit rules.
Chibob drools
Chibob drools
-
Registration is disabled due to constant spammers. Email [email protected] and we will temporarily re-enable registration for you.
2018-2019 Prem / Farewell Stoke Threade - who ate all the pies?
- Thread starter Yankee151
- Start date
But it goes back to what I was saying before about better players, etc. At some point someone will figure it out yes of course. Just like in american football. Someone figured out the air raid, spread option, etc, etc. But the good teams will still prevail in the end. Either out of scheme and adjustments or simply they have better players and atholeeets. Not saying Chelsea is that team, but I think they could be.
From my perspective at least it is those who make the small adjustments that will prevail. As well as those who fit their scheme to their players. Making the on the fly or halftime adjustments to combat the changes the other teams make, etc.
Like how Rich Rod never adjusted his offense against MSU lol. Or any good team for that matter.
From my perspective at least it is those who make the small adjustments that will prevail. As well as those who fit their scheme to their players. Making the on the fly or halftime adjustments to combat the changes the other teams make, etc.
Like how Rich Rod never adjusted his offense against MSU lol. Or any good team for that matter.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
I think all the evidence suggests that the last couple of months is the peak of how you can get this particular group at Chelsea to play. Their personnel is not as good as two years ago, when their backline was more talented. If people cotton on, this is a very good squad but not world beating.
Contrary to what you say, rather than having the best team, if Chelsea win the league it will be by having the best manager.
Of course it is the peak of how they can play, they've fucking won 6 straight in the premier league since switching formations. But saying "they won't stay perfect" isn't a valid criticism, it's a tired truism. All the Chelsea haters gonna be right twice a day like a broken clock when Chelsea inevitably drop points. "SEE IT DIDN'T WORK! FIGURED OUT!" Trogs love overreacting to confirmation bias.
As long as our boys are top of the table the haters are gonna hate, hate, hate.
As long as our boys are top of the table the haters are gonna hate, hate, hate.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
If they finished the season unbeaten, then this wouldn't be the peak.
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
Yeah, I think Chelsea's team is pretty mediocre outside of Hazard and maybe Diego Costa/Courtois. Hazard finding hisself again is a huge deal in all of this. I'm not convinced a backline with an old Gary Cahill and David Luiz will hold up over an entire season.
On the other hand, Conte is clearly flexible enough to change his system when things start breaking down a bit. And he gets all week with the players to drill them (phrasing!), which is huge with someone like Conte. His attention to detail can really pay off.
On the other hand, Conte is clearly flexible enough to change his system when things start breaking down a bit. And he gets all week with the players to drill them (phrasing!), which is huge with someone like Conte. His attention to detail can really pay off.
That's all fair. Chelsea have a very solid squad, but it's not dripping with the world's elite talent, like it has in the past. Hazard and Costa (at least when he's in form) are amongst the best in the world at their positions. Cesc arguably is too, for his skill sit and the type of offensive creativity he offers, but he's not even playing because he doesn't fit Conte's vision.
Willian, Pedro, Oscar, Matic, Cahill, Kante, Alonso, etc. are solid contributors, but don't expect Real, Barca, or Bayern to be beating down Chelsea's door with 100m offers for them.
Courtois is considered one of the world's elite, but quite honestly, to me he's a younger -- and not quite as good -- version of Petr Cech. I do think Azpilicueta is underrated; that dude is a solid defender.
Kante isn't Essien.
Matic isn't Makalele.
Pedro isn't Salomon Kalou.
Ok, he's not Robben.
Alonso isn't Ashley Cole.
Etc., etc.
But Conte, for the moment, is looking like a tactical genius and extracting an extremely high level of play from the squad he's got.
Chibob was trying to argue that the whole top of the Premier League is weak this year, but really it's just his team.
Liverpool look more dangerous than they've been in a long time. City still have tons of talent; they're just in a rough patch. Arsenal gon' Arsenal (4th place pretty much locked up already). And so on and so forth.
Matic isn't Makalele.
Pedro isn't Salomon Kalou.
Ok, he's not Robben.Alonso isn't Ashley Cole.
Etc., etc.
But Conte, for the moment, is looking like a tactical genius and extracting an extremely high level of play from the squad he's got.
Chibob was trying to argue that the whole top of the Premier League is weak this year, but really it's just his team.
Liverpool look more dangerous than they've been in a long time. City still have tons of talent; they're just in a rough patch. Arsenal gon' Arsenal (4th place pretty much locked up already). And so on and so forth.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Kante isn't Essien.
Matic isn't Makalele.
Pedro isn't Salomon Kalou.
Alonso isn't Ashley Cole.
Etc., etc.
But Conte, for the moment, is looking like a tactical genius and extracting an extremely high level of play from the squad he's got.
Chibob was trying to argue that the whole top of the Premier League is weak this year, but really it's just his team.
I sort of think Kante is a clone of Makelele and actually as good. However everything still applies.
One thing I can GUARANTEE, my boys will win the Premier League this season, and you can't say anything to diminish my optimism!
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
I would love you to come to London so I can convert you like I converted my friend David. He hates me every day for turning him into an Arsenal fan.
It is really hard to tell what will speak to me when I'm encountering a new place. When we were in Italy I loved staying in Rome and seeing the sites. Rome was great, but it never really SPOKE to me. Napoli was way shittier by every objective tourist measurement, but it did speak to me in a way Rome didn't. Maybe it was seeing a 35 year old man get a hand job on the sea wall like he was a high school kid looking for a place to fool around out where his parents couldn't catch him? Maybe it was walking through a neighborhood and seeing all the little shops selling these tinny anchovy type fish sitting in a warm trash can lid of salt water? Maybe it was the experience of buying and eating some of those anchovies, then starting to wonder if maybe you are supposed to cook them first? Maybe it is the brain parasite I got from eating raw street vendor fish in Italy that tricked me into loving Napoli and convinced me this alternate reality with President Trump is real?
All I'm saying is that it is hard to predict what sort of thing I'll latch onto when I go on vacation. When it came time for Mr. Manager to pick his team, NAPOLI was the obvious choice!
All I'm saying is that it is hard to predict what sort of thing I'll latch onto when I go on vacation. When it came time for Mr. Manager to pick his team, NAPOLI was the obvious choice!
chibob
Well-Known Member
Broke dick clock right twice a day, and it pats itself on the back.
I also remember how wrong you were about Man U that same year!
I also remember how wrong you were about Man U that same year!
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Someone's going to figure Chelsea out and they'll drop points. You'll owe us an apology. They'll be beaten (or at best draw) in the next ten games, just watch.
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
They didn't really figure it out until the next year, though...
I won't owe you an apology, I agree with you
Still a broke clock statement.You can make the same exact statement about every soccer team in the world and be right 99% of the time. It's a worthless observation is my point.
chibob
Well-Known Member
Didn't Liverpool drop points at the end of the season? Points that made the gerrard slip irrelevant? I remember a certain Mr Pulis figuring the fuck out of them
You people are idiots.
Hold on, are you saying that Chelsea will drop points in at least one game of the next ten.......and that's the sign that they've been "figured out?"
Fuck me, if they only drop points in one out of ten, they will set records after all.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
I won't owe you an apology, I agree with you
You can make the same exact statement about every soccer team in the world and be right 99% of the time. It's a worthless observation is my point.
Let's make this interesting. I wager you £10 that Chelsea don't have a perfect record in the next 9 games.
Lets make this interesting, I wager you squiggly10 that my favorite team will be top of the table after the next 9 games.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Avoiding putting your money where your mouth is?
Pointless wager. £ and € will be worthless once Trump and Putin's tanks roll through Europe.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
We'll see. Still think Chelsea will be dropping points at some stage.
Hold on, are you saying that Chelsea will drop points in at least one game of the next ten.......and that's the sign that they've been "figured out?"
This is my favorite part of the over reaction/confirmation bias people have about a single bad game. SEE TOLD YOU, FIGURED OUT! A team that adopts a contrarian strategy can't ever simply have a bad game (or a bad run of games) or any other reason for losing, It's always because they were FIGURED OUT.
This is the exact reason why the NFL/Premier League/Iowa are always dominated by groupthink. If you play a conventional style and lose you aren't good, but the style is above reproach. If you play an unconventional style and lose, you were FIGURED OUT! Nothing discourages innovation more than this shit. Trogs like the Jaguars could lose for the next 40 years, but BLAKE BORTLES STRONG ARM QB will never be questioned as long as he can put up 300 yards in garbage time.... but wait until Dallas loses a few games in a row (for any reason) and it will because DAK PRESCOTT FIGURED OUT, COLLEGE OFFENSE GIMMICK! Then he'll be traded to the Cleveland Browns for a 6th round pick.
If Chelsea finishes outside of the Champions league spots this season, then you can say the 3-4-3 was FIGURED OUT (but really if they drop out it'll likely be due to lack of defensive depth, not the formation, but ma'narratives). Otherwise stop it with the FIGURED OUT stuff every time they drop points. They entered the season with a new corch coming off a mid table finish, a 4th place finish this season with an unconventional formation would be a solid success.... Hell, even if they win the league, the narrative will be because EVERYONE ELSE SUCKED and the FIGURED OUT CHIBOBS will be asking why Chelsea didn't finish the season with 114 points if the 3-4-3 is so great.
I give Conte an immense amount of credit for even trying the 3 back, because if it doesn't work out perfectly he'll face immense scrutiny and prolly lose his job.
Last edited:
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
This seems like you're printing yourself a license for failure. Going with the unconventional style, and not really caring whether you get figured out is admitting defeat before you've even started out. The season is long, and there's many a twist and turn not to be putting all of your eggs in one basket. I still stand by what I say and that someone is going to beat Chelsea before long and that it will be a result of their tactics. You can't win them all. You'll be having to eat your words.
Uh yeah, I would say there's 99.99% certainty that Chelsea will "drop points at some stage." If not, they'll finish the season with 121 points, which would beat the all-time record (also held by Chelsea
) by a mere 26 points.
hay visit, I love you and I think you're a smart dude, but methinks you're too emotionally invested in the Premier League to form rational thoughts.
Not caring whether you get figured out? Putting all your eggs in one basket? Dude.....Conte is on his FOURTH formation of the season already. Dude didn't like the way the first 3 were playing out, so he kept tinkering. This one has been kicking ass. If it stops being effective, I'm sure he'll tinker further. But let's be clear --- dropping points in one game is hardly a sign that the 3-4-3 has stopped working. Going on an extended skid might be. Or it could be that he's run the same starting XI into the ground by then.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Absolutely no way Chelsea gets the record. Are you serious? I would bet serious money against that.Uh yeah, I would say there's 99.99% certainty that Chelsea will "drop points at some stage." If not, they'll finish the season with 121 points, which would beat the all-time record (also held by Chelsea
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
I've got to go to sleep. It's late and I am laughing too much. @Travis7401 @TrojanMan let's continue the debate tomorrow!
printing urself a "license for failure" is just realism. Of course ur gonna fail at some point, the other team has professional players too! You are going to lose games and you are going to fail, it doesn't mean you should abandon an unconventional style. Overcoming the panic/trog reactions based on confirmation bias is one of the hardest parts of adopting a contrarian strategy in sports, and it's the reason why true innovation flows up from lower levels to higher levels rather than the other way around... it is easier for a lower level corch to deal with scrutiny!
There are so many examples in sports where corches make hugely sub-optimal decisions just to stay within the bounds of conventional wisdom. Because if you fail within the bounds of conventional wisdom it is just because you didn't play well. If you fail outside of those conventional bounds, then it is PANIC FIGURED OUT!
95% of high school footbaw teams still punt the ball every 4th down, and spend hours of practice time on punt drills every week, when it is literally the worst thing you can do at that level of footbaw because Punters don't even average 25 net yards and field position means less because most scores are the result of big plays rather than sustained drives. A punt is a designed fucking turnover with like a 25% chance of a measurable positive outcome (ie enough of a shift in field position to justify the turnover) at the high school level. I mean it is dumb to punt in the NFL in a lot of situations, but at least it is close to a 50/50 decision. In high school this is a 25/75 decision and the corches are taking the 25 side. It is absurd, but they still do it because people will panic if they don't pick up a first down by going for it on 4th. Even with the middle school kids, I had to lecture them for weeks that it wasn't the end of the world if they failed a 4th down conversion. They would literally feel worse about a failed 4th down conversion than they would about a blocked punt or a punt returned for a touchdown, because at least those negative punting plays worked within the framework of conventional wisdom. A blocked punt was just a bad play, a failed 4th down conversion challenged their whole conception of reality, lol.
There are so many examples in sports where corches make hugely sub-optimal decisions just to stay within the bounds of conventional wisdom. Because if you fail within the bounds of conventional wisdom it is just because you didn't play well. If you fail outside of those conventional bounds, then it is PANIC FIGURED OUT!
95% of high school footbaw teams still punt the ball every 4th down, and spend hours of practice time on punt drills every week, when it is literally the worst thing you can do at that level of footbaw because Punters don't even average 25 net yards and field position means less because most scores are the result of big plays rather than sustained drives. A punt is a designed fucking turnover with like a 25% chance of a measurable positive outcome (ie enough of a shift in field position to justify the turnover) at the high school level. I mean it is dumb to punt in the NFL in a lot of situations, but at least it is close to a 50/50 decision. In high school this is a 25/75 decision and the corches are taking the 25 side. It is absurd, but they still do it because people will panic if they don't pick up a first down by going for it on 4th. Even with the middle school kids, I had to lecture them for weeks that it wasn't the end of the world if they failed a 4th down conversion. They would literally feel worse about a failed 4th down conversion than they would about a blocked punt or a punt returned for a touchdown, because at least those negative punting plays worked within the framework of conventional wisdom. A blocked punt was just a bad play, a failed 4th down conversion challenged their whole conception of reality, lol.
I cant figure out this thread right now. Jeez.
I'll see if I can help... From Mr. Manager's extensive research (reading inverting the pyramid) there is a bit of game theory involved with how formations shift depending on the prevailing trends among other teams in any given league. Generally speaking, an offensive development occurs and then a defensive development is created to match. Just like in footbaw, offensive innovations occur and then defensive innovations follow. Defense is always a step behind! This is a bit complicated in soccer because merely saying a formation doesn't tell you a whole lot about how the players function within said formation. (ie does the defense man mark or play zone? Is the offensive movement rigid or fluid?). Without complicating things too much with getting into the historical details about man/zonal marking trends, it is sufficient to say that odd numbered defensive back formations are typically popular in times where even numbered attacking formations are popular and vice versa. (ie for every attacker you have that many defenders +1 extra defender).
If you are playing against a 2 striker formation, having 3 defenders will allow you to be very sound with man on man + 1 free player to help out where needed (libero) or you'd also be very sound with zonal marking because 3 defenders can cover the center focused attacks of 2 strikers. If you are playing against 3 forward formation, you'll want 4 defenders for either man marking (man to man +1) or zonal marking (3 attackers can now stretch you wider, thus making a 4th defend necessary in zone system). I'd say the most common offensive formation (4-2-3-1) of the last decade is based around a single striker (+3 additional with midfielders attacking fluidly behind him) and thus looking at heat maps, you see many teams playing with only two true defenders (They can call it a 4 back, but attacking wingbacks end up spending most of the game forward of midfield).
Now all this shit game theory provides a relatively small advantage, because teams tend to set their defenses up to face the majority of their opposition, because switching defensive philosophies game to game would cause more problems than it is worth. To me, the ideal game theory formation for a big club in the premier league (who can sign whatever players they want) would be the 4-1-2-1-2. 4 at the back gives you the best strategic match against most of the league (1 or 3 attackers), while your 2 striker/2 winger formation also provides an advantage against the 2/4 back formations, as they don't have a free man or zonal marking defensive match unless they commit a midfielder to defense. Last time the 3 back formations were popular in the Premier league was when some teams used it in the late 1990s after noticing the international/champions league success of 3 back formations against the classic 4-4-2. It was short lived in the Premier League, because as the 4-4-2 fell out of favor, so did the 3 back formations.
So Chelsea is giving up a bit of a strategic/game theory advantage by deploying a 3 defender formation in a league where almost every attacking formation is odd numbered.... but the personnel considerations (a shortage of defenders, especially fullbacks) means that it is better for them to play with 3 solid defenders than 3 solid defenders and a liability at the 4th spot. Furthermore, the strategic disadvantage is more than made up for on the offensive end of the field, as the 3-4-3 frees up a world class attacking player (Hazard) by virtually removing the defensive responsibilities (of marking a wingback) that he had in the 4-2-3-1. So they are using a formation with a slight strategic disadvantage if all players were equal, in order to put their best players in the best positions to succeed and limit the number of liability players on the field.
Last edited:
Karl Hungus
Here to fix the cable
Arsenal going to fire Wenger and hire some Championship manager who will bring back the WM and lead the Gunners to glory. No, this isn't a script I've been working on in my spare time over the past five years...
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
I can't believe you were responding to my dumb ass posts. I was seeing how far I could push it before getting called out. In this post, I was seeing how many idiotic, meaningless cliche idioms I could fit in :
I honestly thought by the time I said I was laughing hard that you would suss me out.
I was seeing how far I could push it before getting called out. In this post, I was seeing how many idiotic, meaningless cliche idioms I could fit in :
Maybe you've been talking to chibob for too long...
I honestly thought by the time I said I was laughing hard that you would suss me out.
Last edited:
NML
Well-Known Member
Thought hay visit had lost the plot there...
I like Conte, and I'm not necessarily thinking that he'll be "figured out" as much as the players just aren't that good. Then again, I don't think Liverpool has a single world class player but they've probably had the best start in the league.
I lean City but Chelsea/Pool don't have Europe to worry about, so I think it's anybody's game. Liverpool probably in the best position at the moment, but with the worst players.
I like Conte, and I'm not necessarily thinking that he'll be "figured out" as much as the players just aren't that good. Then again, I don't think Liverpool has a single world class player but they've probably had the best start in the league.
I lean City but Chelsea/Pool don't have Europe to worry about, so I think it's anybody's game. Liverpool probably in the best position at the moment, but with the worst players.
two days before Tgiving? I might as well not exist for the next month, you know the drill, no clients home
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Yes. It says they're fucking fantastic, and therefore Hay visit can post a load of bollocks and we'll still take him seriously.
He did win championships giving Kevin Grosskreutz serious minutes...
