Southpaw Gon' Look Are you from PD looking for evidence on @brick, sir? The Miami Hurricanes Thread aka Baseless Rumors Corner

[GuyIncognito]

His best season was 8 wins with a program that had never had a winning season, a program that was 0-12 when he took over and couldn't have beaten half the high schools in Dade County.

Like I said, that sounds more to me like a criticism of him taking the FIU job in the first place. But even if you have a negative view of his time at FIU, I don't see how it's even relevant to the Miami question. How are FIU and Miami alike? Well they're in the same city, so it affects recruiting, and Cristobal DRASTICALLY increased the caliber of players at FIU under his tenure, including the only 4-star player in the history of the team.

"He went 20-26 with FIU talent" doesn't seem like a relevant criticism to me. I'm not sure it's a criticism at all.

 

[GuyIncognito]

FWIW, Butch Davis only went 28-23 at UNC, to go with 24-35 with the Browns.

 

[Brick]

I'll save you the trouble: Mario Cristobal was the HC for every winning season in FIU history.

Nice try with "history".

What was FIU's record before Cristobal got there? How many BCS wins did it have? What's FIU's record since he left?

FIU was far and away the worst program in the country when he took that job and he went to two bowl games with it.

This is the type of hyperbole that gets thrown around a lot during new corch searches. They were 5-6 overall and 3-4 in the Sun Belt three years before Cristobal took over (just as good as 3 of 5 of Cristobal's seasons) Even during their 1-11 season they played Maryland and Miami competitively, 10-26 and 9-23 losses respectively. They weren't getting spanked during the winless 2007 season, their offense just sucked. They didn't allow more than 38 points all year, which is how much I believe Dabo's boys put up in Q1 against Miami this past Saturday.

Again: the head coaching job at Miami is 95% recruiting and hiring the right coordinators. Cristobal proved he could recruit even at the crappiest program in America. As for coordinators, that's always a crapshoot.

"95%" "crappiest program". See above.

If "couldn't turn FIU from the worst team in the country into a powerhouse in 6 years" is the only knock on him, then I hope we hire him today.

Yes, they should have been winning national championships!

a program that was 0-12 when he took over and couldn't have beaten half the high schools in Dade County.

...

 

[GuyIncognito]

I don't see an argument in there, and I find it strange that you would try to mitigate how bad 0-12 FIU was before Cristobal while at the same time trying to denigrate his 20-26 record there.

Seriously, if a coach isn't also calling plays, how are his responsibilities not recruiting and hiring the right staff?

I don't see how his time at FIU should foster any negative implications about his ability to succeed at Miami.

 

[Southpaw]

@Brick doesn't like any corch who doesn't win shampships. That's why he doesn't even like Chip Kelly.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Well I bet Larry Coker will take our call then.

 

[bruin228]

Cristobal would be a great hire. I enjoy watching Miami be completely irrelevant.

 

[Brick]

Meh, mak will continue talking to hisself. Enjoy another shitty corch.

MIAMI MANG

 

[PSUEagle]

To me Mario Cristobal is the Cuban twin of Al Golden, to me.

 

[GuyIncognito]

I've only ever been talking to myself. That's what happens when the trolls come out.

But so yeah, "he didn't dominate at FIU" doesn't seem like a very good reason to believe that an otherwise perfectly qualified coach shouldn't be considered at Miami. He'll work for the lower salary we have to offer, he understands the program and puts a premium on it, and he's as good a recruiter as there is anywhere.

As far as *realistic* candidates go, that's about as much as we can ask for.

 

[GuyIncognito]

To me Mario Cristobal is the Cuban twin of Al Golden, to me.

But what's the logic behind that?

Golden's biggest problem IMO is that he was overly committed to bad coordinators and refused to make desperately needed changes.

What evidence is there A) that Cristobal is going to bring in incompetent coordinators, and B) that he'll refuse to boot them when they reveal their incompetence?

 

[Southpaw]

We need to be asking the important questions like, what does his wife look like? What does his game day wardrobe look like?

 

[Lightningwar]

I dont try to make too much of coaching attire. But Al Golden could not have picked a worse wardrobe for game day. The guy looked like he was constantly trying to sell used cars to the refs during the game.

Al: "That was a horseshit call, but you know what isnt horseshit? The deal I can give you after the game on this 94 Bronco with low mileage and a rebuilt engine. Just a little rust on the front fender from a collision with deer in the fall of 98. I will give it to you real cheap, 1700 bucks. Tell me we have a deal".

 

[kella]

We need to be asking the important questions like, what does his wife look like? What does his game day wardrobe look like?

How does he feel about the troops?

 

[goblue96]

I dont try to make too much of coaching attire. But Al Golden could not have picked a worse wardrobe for game day. The guy looked like he was constantly trying to sell used cars to the refs during the game.

Al: "That was a horseshit call, but you know what isnt horseshit? The deal I can give you after the game on this 94 Bronco with low mileage and a rebuilt engine. Just a little rust on the front fender from a collision with deer in the fall of 98. I will give it to you real cheap, 1700 bucks. Tell me we have a deal".

Ref: I need you to throw in all-weather floor mats

 

[CJ_24]

We need to be asking the important questions like, what does his wife look like? What does his game day wardrobe look like?

Is he willing to pay for escorts?

 

[atlbraves]

Is G-Reg still playing in the NFL? They should hire him

 

[Schauwn]

Well I bet Larry Coker will take our call then.

Read this as Larry Culpepper

 

[PSUEagle]

But what's the logic behind that?

Golden's biggest problem IMO is that he was overly committed to bad coordinators and refused to make desperately needed changes.

What evidence is there A) that Cristobal is going to bring in incompetent coordinators, and B) that he'll refuse to boot them when they reveal their incompetence?

Cristobal had a grand total of three wins over teams with winning records: Golden had one at Temple, so I guess he has him beat there.

Both coaches consistently had the highest rated recruiting classes in their respective conferences yet failed to do anything more than beat teams they out talented. In Golden's case it was not even winning the MAC East with a roster that had multiple NFL players on it, while Cristobal went 3-9 with the conference's most talented team before he was canned.

BTW, what evidence is there that he'd even hire "good" coordinators? This is the dude the thought James Coley would be a good OC. Actually, you know who else thought that? Al Golden.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Cristobal had a grand total of three wins over teams with winning records: Golden had one at Temple, so I guess he has him beat there.

Again, so what? Unless the argument is that someone else would have won more than 8 games at FIU, I don't know what the point is.

Again, it seems like this is a condemnation of Cristobal taking the FIU job at all rather than about the job he did there.

Both coaches consistently had the highest rated recruiting classes in their respective conferences yet failed to do anything more than beat teams they out talented. In Golden's case it was not even winning the MAC East with a roster that had multiple NFL players on it, while Cristobal went 3-9 with the conference's most talented team before he was canned.

BTW, what evidence is there that he'd even hire "good" coordinators? This is the dude the thought James Coley would be a good OC. Actually, you know who else thought that? Al Golden.

So he recruited great players to FIU. Good. That's a plus.

As for the last part, I'm not sure what you mean. Cristobal thought Coley would be a good OC? When did he get to opine on that? FSU hired him after a season.

 

[GuyIncognito]

And I don't need to see evidence that he'd hire "good" coordinators. I think the burden should be on the utterly irrational hatred of an otherwise perfectly qualified coach.

This is right up there with Keith blaming Swasey for the decline of the program.

 

[atlbraves]

I think the burden should be on the utterly irrational hatred of an otherwise perfectly qualified coach.

I think everybody provided a pretty fair rationale behind why they're skeptical. You can still support hiring Cristobal, and recognize that the apprehension doesn't stem from "utterly irrational hatred." I mean, there was a lot of well-warranted skepticism when USC hired Pete Carroll.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Yeah, if you have an actual argument that isn't "lol, Cristobal," or that isn't "He only won 20 games in 6 years after inheriting the worst program in America."

That's what's irrational about it in my book. There are reasons to be apprehensive. "I'm apprehensive" and "enjoy your shitty program" are not the same category.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Of course there are reasons to be apprehensive about any coach. But if you're going to make a case for someone else then make the case. Explain how we can afford it, explain how we can outbid USC and whomever else for the guy, explain why 1-2 years of success don't result in the guy jumping ship.

Make an actual argument instead of this endlessly depressed "woe is me" attitude that has surrounded this 'fan' base for the last decade.

Everybody hates Cristobal, who is the most viable candidate. And the same arguments apply to Butch.

So where does that leave us?

 

[Wooly]

Yeah, if you have an actual argument that isn't "lol, Cristobal," or that isn't "He only won 20 games in 6 years after inheriting the worst program in America."

That's what's irrational about it in my book. There are reasons to be apprehensive. "I'm apprehensive" and "enjoy your shitty program" are not the same category.

PSU just gave you a rationale with some supporting analysis, and then you conveniently ignored half of it. PSU said Cristobal recruited well, but couldn't translate that superior talent into winning, aka doing less with more. Your response was that it's good Cristobal can recruit well.

It's one thing to disagree, but you just carefully ignored most of the rationale he gave, dismissed some out of hand, and then later asserted that no one has given any rationale. Do you spend a lot of time on politics?

 

[GuyIncognito]

When you fire a guy after he has one bad season following the two best seasons in the history of the program, I don't think you get to make the "less with more" argument. How the hell can you tell that over those three years?

 

[GuyIncognito]

And again: make an argument for someone else. If it can't be Cristobal or Butch because they didn't win titles at shitty ass programs, then who do you want that we can afford and outbid bigger programs for?

That's why I posted Bruce Feldman's article, because I think he makes a very strong case for the constraints Miami has to operate under, and they're constraints that the fanbase seems to incessantly ignore when assessing these decisions.

If some assistant is "the hottest name in coaching," then you can bet your ass he's not coming to Miami, because there will be some other program offering him two or three times the salary to coach there instead.

So, given the constraints, who do you like?

 

[atlbraves]

As I said earlier, I'll defer to the guy who played for a team that had Cristobal on the coaching staff. You're right that he is quite likely the most viable candidate.

Just playing devil's advocate here. It's not mutually exclusive to think he built the FIU football from scratch and he absolutely shouldn't have been fired, and also think his last season was a disappointing step back which showed he wasn't as good a coach as people thought he was. Maybe that was a fluke - FIU lost a lot of close games that year. Maybe it reflects well on Cristobal that FIU, at this point in its history, was even competitive in those games.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Well I shouldn't be deferred to just because I know the guy. I know Mark Stoops too. In fact, maybe my opinion should be challenged because I happen to really like Cristobal and it could be clouding my judgment. But I just don't understand the argument.

The administration at FIU under Pete Garcia was a complete cesspool, and the firing of Cristobal was unjustified by any reasonable standard. And so I don't think it's fair to hold what he didn't do against him when he's putting up with such a dysfunctional environment.

If the argument is that he stockpiled talent and then wasted it before being summarily fired, then logic dictates the team should have improved after he was let go. Same roster, better coach, right?

Instead they went 1-11 the next year.

So I don't get it. Cristobal is a Miami guy, he's as good a recruiter as there is in the country, he values the program, he understands the constraints and the benefits of the program, and he's spent the last 3 years under the tutelage of maybe the best coach in football.

Those are all pretty goddamn high recommendations in my book. And if all we have on the other side of the ledger is that he went 3-9 after taking an awful FIU team to two consecutive bowl games, then whatever. I don't think that's a huge knock.

And I think it's a downright incomprehensible knock in the absence of an argument for a viable alternative.

 

[Southpaw]

I bet the canes could steal Mark richt from uga if they wanted to.

 

[Yankee151]

Thank Al Golden for bringing back old Mak, we had run out of topics in the political forum but glad to see you haven't lost it

 

[Bmack]

I bet the canes could steal Mark richt from uga if they wanted to.

Richt should take the lower paying gig anyway. You can't serve both God and Mammon. He's made enough cash.

 

[CJ_24]

Both coaches consistently had the highest rated recruiting classes in their respective conferences yet failed to do anything more than beat teams they out talented.

To me, this doesn't seem like a bad thing, to me.

To me, it seems there are an abundance of corches who don't do this, to me.

 

[GuyIncognito]

lol, and that's a good point. If Miami would just beat the teams it "out-talents," we'd win 10 games a year.

 

[PSUEagle]

Again, so what? Unless the argument is that someone else would have won more than 8 games at FIU, I don't know what the point is.

The point is that his track record and career trajectory almost mirrors Al Golden exactly. Take over a moribund program, in Golden's case a job that was legitimately considered the worst in the country. Recruit extremely well (better than anyone else in the conference), taking advantage of the fact that you have a lot of local talent in your backyard (FIU=Miami & Temple=Eastern PA/NJ). Turn things around, but only in the sense of beating teams based solely on having way more talent than them. Shit the bed against anyone with a pulse, since you actually have to coach to beat those teams. The only area they diverge is what happened afterwards: Golden conned Miami into hiring him while Cristobal lost a power struggle with his AD and is a position coach.

Compare that to someone like Justin Fuente who took over a similarly bad job (arguably worse given Memphis' location compared to Philly/Miami). By his 3rd year he won ten games along with a conference title, and he has them rolling this year despite losing nine starters off his defense. That's good coaching and development, and that's what Miami should be looking for IMO.

Someone like Fuente, Tom Herman, or Kirby Smart would all be light years better than Mario Cristobal. And all should be reasonably priced, too: USC will shoot big again (my guess is they end up with an NFL guy) and will see guys like that as too unproven. So beyond them, who has a better available job? South Carolina? Virginia Tech?

So he recruited great players to FIU. Good. That's a plus.

So did Golden: seven players drafted from last year's team, including three in the 1st round. Remind me, what was his record again with all of that talent?

Yes recruiting and getting talent is the most important part of the job, but it's not even close to being the only requirement. Miami with it's location doesn't need a great recruiter: as long as they win the kids will come.

As for the last part, I'm not sure what you mean. Cristobal thought Coley would be a good OC? When did he get to opine on that? FSU hired him after a season.

I mean Cristobal's very first hire was Coley as his OC at FIU. I don't think it's fair to say he was bad there even though their offensive stats were atrocious, but I've seen enough at Miami to conclude that he sucks at his job. Hence my argument that saying all he has to is hire good coordinators should be considered a crapshoot at best.

 

[GuyIncognito]

The point is that his track record and career trajectory almost mirrors Al Golden exactly. Take over a moribund program, in Golden's case a job that was legitimately considered the worst in the country. Recruit extremely well (better than anyone else in the conference), taking advantage of the fact that you have a lot of local talent in your backyard (FIU=Miami & Temple=Eastern PA/NJ). Turn things around, but only in the sense of beating teams based solely on having way more talent than them. Shit the bed against anyone with a pulse, since you actually have to coach to beat those teams. The only area they diverge is what happened afterwards: Golden conned Miami into hiring him while Cristobal lost a power struggle with his AD and is a position coach.

Again, I don't think that makes sense, simply because Cristobal's tenure ended in a question mark when he was fired after one bad season (following the two best seasons in the history of the program).

So I don't know how you can compare the trajectories.

Compare that to someone like Justin Fuente who took over a similarly bad job (arguably worse given Memphis' location compared to Philly/Miami). By his 3rd year he won ten games along with a conference title, and he has them rolling this year despite losing nine starters off his defense. That's good coaching and development, and that's what Miami should be looking for IMO.

Justin Fuente calls plays. And Miami can't afford him.

Again, that's the problem: of course anyone with a brain can think of more attractive candidates than Cristobal. But if you're not operating within the confines of reality then what's the point? It's just academic.

Someone like Fuente, Tom Herman, or Kirby Smart would all be light years better than Mario Cristobal. And all should be reasonably priced, too: USC will shoot big again (my guess is they end up with an NFL guy) and will see guys like that as too unproven. So beyond them, who has a better available job? South Carolina? Virginia Tech?

Pretty much any major program. We'd have to add a million dollars to the HC's salary just to match what Mark Stoops already makes.

It's the 42nd highest paid job in the country, which means there are 41 better jobs. Unless you find someone that puts a premium on the program itself, which is why every speculative coach list is full of former Miami guys.

So did Golden: seven players drafted from last year's team, including three in the 1st round. Remind me, what was his record again with all of that talent?

Yes recruiting and getting talent is the most important part of the job, but it's not even close to being the only requirement. Miami with it's location doesn't need a great recruiter: as long as they win the kids will come.

Golden doesn't call the plays. His failure was not his inability to call good plays, it was his refusal to fire bad coordinators. So again, the Cristobal comparison doesn't work absent some evidence that Cristobal is overly committed to bad coordinators.

I mean Cristobal's very first hire was Coley as his OC at FIU. I don't think it's fair to say he was bad there even though their offensive stats were atrocious, but I've seen enough at Miami to conclude that he sucks at his job. Hence my argument that saying all he has to is hire good coordinators should be considered a crapshoot at best.

And FSU hired Coley away after a season, so what's the point? FIU doesn't get the pick of the litter.

The fact that hiring coordinators is "a crapshoot at best" was MY argument. I said exactly that pages ago before everybody lost their shit.

So, recruiting is a plus and coordinators are a crapshoot. That's precisely my argument for Cristobal. We know he can do half the job as well as anyone in the country. And we're all just guessing about the second half, but that'd be just as true of Butch or Chud too.

 

[GuyIncognito]

You can't just say "Golden and Cristobal both lost games."

You have to explain why they lost games. Miami didn't lose games because of a talent deficiency, they lost games because the defense has been trash for years and never makes adjustments, and the offense sputters when it matters because there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to what it's trying to do.

That, to me, says the big problems are at the coordinator positions. That's only on the HC (when he isn't a coordinator) insofar as he refuses to make changes at those spots. If Golden had fired D'Onofrio and hired a competent defensive coordinator, there's every reason to believe he'd still have his job.

So that's what needs to be fixed. Golden had to go because it's the only way to get at D'Onofrio. Absent some showing that the new HC is going to leave D'Onofrio in place or hire someone equally incompetent, I don't understand the hate.

 

[Southpaw]

I still say go for Mark Richt. He is sick of hearing UGA fans bitch about him.

 

[GatorTD]

You want a guy who will only recruit and hire coordinators? MACK BROWN.

 

[Karl Hungus]

I've only ever been talking to myself. That's what happens when the trolls come out.

But so yeah, "he didn't dominate at FIU" doesn't seem like a very good reason to believe that an otherwise perfectly qualified coach shouldn't be considered at Miami. He'll work for the lower salary we have to offer, he understands the program and puts a premium on it, and he's as good a recruiter as there is anywhere.

As far as *realistic* candidates go, that's about as much as we can ask for.

FYI, you just described Paul Rhoads.


That said, I think Rhoads is a good coach in an impossible situation.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Right. And FIU is an impossible situation. Every coach *except* Cristobal has found that out the hard way. Taking that program to two bowl games in six years is not something to laugh at, and the combined 1-23 record on either end of Cristobal's tenure is proof of that.

 

[DeadMan]

nevermind

 

[GuyIncognito]

From the Herald:

Jimmy Johnson told me that he and UM athletic director Blake James have texted and “I let him know I’m available if he wants a sounding board” on the coaching search. A UM source said James will take J.J. up on the offer.

Johnson says candidates shouldn’t be limited to people with UM ties. “You want the best candidate,” he said. “There are some outstanding individuals who will be interested in this job. I wouldn’t want any restriction.

“The University of Miami is a very unique place – there are obviously some things Miami does not have that some other top schools do have — but Miami has some advantages – being in such a great area for recruiting. For a football coach, if you want to win, you’ve got a great opportunity. I still think it’s a great job but it takes the right individual.”

 

[CJ_24]

This Rosier kid looks alright.

 

[Yankee151]

rofl we bad

 

[CJ_24]

The 3 PI's on dook's game winning drive were of a questionable nature.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Well, aside from being one of, if not the, most ridiculous finishes in history, I think last night validated the idea that Golden was protecting D'Onofrio and had to go. D'Onofrio may be mentally ill. How many times can you not just get 11 guys on the field before the ball is snapped haha.

Anywho, everything went according to the typical Miami script. Prove that man for man you're better than your opponent, put the brakes on down the stretch so you can lose the game on the last drive, etc.

I'll consider what came after that an act of divine approval of the coaching change.

 

[Mr. Radpants]

Did what Golden could never do in one game. Amazing.

 

[Carolina Blue]

Has anyone seen a replay of the PI call on Artie Burns at the end of the game? Sure looked like he earned that INT.

 

[Dr. Shats Basoon]