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Principles of Pro Style Offenses

Discussion in 'NCAA Football Discussion' started by JSU Zack, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. FSS

    FSS Member

    Posts:
    41
    Anyone run undercenter iformation attack? Maybe something like Michigan or Stanford. I'm curious to see how that works and your strategy especially in the run game.
     
  2. FSS

    FSS Member

    Posts:
    41
    What are your thoughts on "the pass setting up the run" from west coast offense balanced attack perspective? How has this worked for you in practice?

    I know for me defensively its going to be tough to open up the run by passing against unless your really pass dominant. I'll also usually be plus 1 in the run game most of the time regardless of playcalling. Now I say that not because I can't be run on, but I'm having trouble seeing this in practice.

    I tend to do better either being run dominant or pass dominant. Mixing the two has giving me inconsistent results. What I'm trully trying to do is make my prostyle run game more explosive and efficient.
     
  3. nofx94

    nofx94 Active Member

    Posts:
    163
    Team:
    Oakland Raiders
    I've never been an efficient enough passer to use the pass to consistently set up the run. I'm much more prone to doing it the other way around. I try to be balanced but I admittedly force too many stupid passes, so I always skew probably 60-40 run. And I always recruit mobile QBs so I can rely on them to run as well, so I can try to limit my exposure in the passing game. I have never successfully been super pass-dominant. On the PS2 games, I had some 55-45 pass-run ratios on occasion, but the quasi-antiquated way that I look at passing (I'll throw screens but I stay looking down field) impedes an efficient application of air raid.
    Have you attempted to do an I-form heavy attack? It's been my experience going back to the PS2 days that a custom playbook built around a primarily-2-back philosophy doesn't need the same variety of form/set permutations as, for instance, a spread book, because there simply aren't as many varieties. What I mean is that, you can have some variety of ace and gun sets in your I formation book because the I form (and I offsets, even) take up so little playbook space...

    I form is definitely one of my favorite formations. I had an I form triple option squad on PS2 one time. That was nice. It's such a prototypical balanced formation.

    I find in NCAA 14 that Power O doesn't work as well from I form as from Pistol, but it's not as awful as some people make it out to be, in my opinion. I have found, in making playbooks that attempt a balance of multiple formations, that I'll sometimes forego I form in favor of 2 back pistol looks because of the increased variety of play call p possibilities.

    I've also found myself trying to build all of my playbooks with a realistically limited combination of looks and styles. For instance, I've found a general philosophy in reading about people's development of run games that 'teams either run power or zone,' and there's certainly a way to build your running game strictly one way or another; even if you want to include QBrun stuff, you're just picking qb wrap and power instead of zone read. And they're going along with base/01 dive and counter out of the gun as opposed to inside zone/outside zone.

    But I've also read a breakdown of LSU's running game from a few years back that shows that they ran - out of 21 and 22 personnel - both power and zone looks effectively. This may not be exactly standard, as they relied on the running game near-completely and so were bound to have a more sophisticated running game than their passing game, but I read a breakdown of Harbaugh's Stanford stuff going into Michigan and he similarly combined power and zone.

    Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk
     
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  4. Downinthebend

    Downinthebend Active Member

    Posts:
    189
    One idea I played around with before, was cancelling the QB outsidezone/stretch playaction and then rolling the QB out like a naked. you ever try that?
     
  5. nofx94

    nofx94 Active Member

    Posts:
    163
    Team:
    Oakland Raiders
    I actually haven't. What was your reasoning for it? What's its effect?

    Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk
     
  6. Downinthebend

    Downinthebend Active Member

    Posts:
    189
    Its something I played around with awhile in my years-ago dynasty where I ran a pro-style Denver/Texans (inside zone/ outside zone) offense. Basically I found that for whatever reason, when the TE is set to release block on those stretch playactions, he (the TE) will basically cut block the end-man-line-of scrimmage, so if you do the playaction fake but cut it at a certain point with a running QB, it really allows you to get outside the pocket, basically its a non-terrible Naked run.

    I'm not sure how gamey it is, it seems to somewhat resemble real life plays, and doesn't seem that overpowered.


    My theory of my own pro-style offense (before I always move away from it) is just inside/outside zone from as many formations as I can, and air raid plays for passing, and playaction off that run action. Inevitably I hate recruiting many TEs/FBs and also WRs so I just recruit simple stuff and shift to air raid.
     
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  7. nofx94

    nofx94 Active Member

    Posts:
    163
    Team:
    Oakland Raiders
    I can never master air raid and in general on the PS3 I make a lot of mistakes passing, but in my Clemson PS2 dynasty I have definitely been using the pass to set up the run because the roster enables a primarily one-back set.

    Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk
     
  8. FSS

    FSS Member

    Posts:
    41
    Tbh when you play action it auto sucks in the d line from contain for moment. They then engage with olineman and since they they are now locked into an animation you can break contain pretty effectively. Canceling the PA gets the same results from dline but its quick so easier for qb to break contain.

    If you ever played madden on ps3 online its 10 times worse. 90% of online players whole offense is based running playaction canceling then sprint to the sideline giving them 6 sec to throw every play.
     
  9. FSS

    FSS Member

    Posts:
    41
    Recently found this article on the use tight formations like the Iformation to get play-makers into space.

    http://breakdownsports.blogspot.com...augh-michigan-power-O-pass-spread-option.html


    It really got me interested how old prostyle iformaiton offenses went about offense and how you don't have to "spread" receivers to get their star players in space. Does anyone else have information on the playcalling strategy of tight formation offenses?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  10. LEGEND

    LEGEND Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    1,136
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Team:
    Miami
    I don't have info on play calling strategy... But I ran some I formation tight stuff. It was very effective and I put up big numbers running and passing against cpu and most users. I ran into issues against more high level users.. As I was not a good passer and I struggled against stacked boxes that forced me to pass. I might go back to some of that stuff now.. since I've improved on my passing.
     
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  11. LEGEND

    LEGEND Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    1,136
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Team:
    Miami
    https://web.archive.org/web/2012052...ing-and-tom-moores-indianapolis-colts-offense

    This is a nice read from smartfootball on The Indianapolis Colts offense under Peyton Manning and Tom Moore. I'm running a under center offense based off this scheme currently. I'm having a lot of fun recreating this right now... I'm trying to keep it as close to it as I can in game. I've never been a person that likes to run a play or plays multiple times in one game... But I like the simplicity of this scheme.
     
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  12. LEGEND

    LEGEND Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    1,136
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Team:
    Miami
    I've played seven games now with Tom Moore's offensive scheme.... four cpu and three users. I'm 6-1 since adopting this scheme. The lone loss came in my very second game vs a user. I got down early 17-0 and came back and tied it at 24-24 before losing on a FG with 3 secs remaining. In two user games I got down 17-0 which is crazy... I was able to come back and win one. The other user game was a 57-3 blow out in which I ran the ball the entire second half. In the loss to the second user I threw 3 int's in the first half 0 in second. Against next user I threw 4 in first half and again 0 in second half. The next user I had 0 int's and if not for 1 drop... I would have been perfect.

    My issue with picks have been a combination of bad decisions and bad throws... I'm still learning how to place the ball exactly where I want it. I've tried to force big plays too often and it's gotten me in trouble. In the last user game... I ran the scheme to near perfection. The big plays are there... I just have to be more patient and set them up better.
     
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  13. LEGEND

    LEGEND Well-Known Member

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    1,136
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Team:
    Miami
    Played a cpu game a bit earlier and my starting QB threw 9 TD's and 1 Int. My back up came in and threw another 2 with a pick. In each case the Int came again from trying to force a big play or quick score. I'm 100% under center at this point. In another dyn in four games (3 cpu 1 user) I've been sacked 24 times. The sliders have pass protection at 15 which makes playing UC HELL!!!

    I haven't been sacked much by users.. 98% of my sacks are vs cpu. In the dyn I spoke of... FCS Southwest sacked me 8 times. I couldn't finish my auto drop in most cases... On play action I had to cancel auto drop and manually sprint from behind center. My line is experienced and upperclassmen but sliders make them useless in pass protection. I actually kept 7 in max protection on several pass attempts against a 3 man rush... I still was sacked before I could finish my drop back. With the exception of mirrored routes from time to time from slider setting... I've still been able to shred the cpu.
     
  14. LEGEND

    LEGEND Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    1,136
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Team:
    Miami
    The more I play this game... The more I realize I've been doing wrong all these yrs!:angry:

    I'm the Tim Tebow of EA sports NCAA football...:crying2:

    Finally figured out why I can't make certain throws... I have a hitch in my passing mechanics. lol I've developed a bad habit of passing ass backwards... I'm doing the reverse of what I should be doing. I lead the pass in the opposite direction I actually intend for it to go. I didn't catch it until after playing @bruin228 tonight in Powerhouse dyn. Now I'm trying to correct the hitch by playing with left handed qb's. I have a 3rd string QB who's a lefty... I started playing with him and passes feel more natural. Now I have to figure out how to make passes that I'd learned backwards the correct way. o_O
     
  15. Atmore

    Atmore Active Member

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    129
    Can you explain in more detail? I'm not the best passer but I may be making the same mistakes

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
     
  16. LEGEND

    LEGEND Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    1,136
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Team:
    Miami

    When I started playing NCAA on PS2... I strictly ran option. So when I came to Xbox... I stuck with it, since that's what I knew. The bad about running option was... passing was too easy! It didn't require any touch or precision passing. The receiver you were throwing to was usually wide open... or uncovered. Once they started precision passing and throwing receivers open... You had to start pass leading. Since you had to now lead the pass... I over compensated. If I wanted to throw a deep corner route to the right... I tilted the stick at a sharp angle right.

    To me it made sense... But the actual play mechanics is to lead up on the stick (12' o clock) with a slight tilt left or right to get the desired effect. Running option allowed me to still be effective since the pass was usually unexpected. In 2012 EA revamped the Option Run play book... I haven't run option since. I knew that play book inside out... I didn't need to read defenses or coverage's etc... I could basically do a Paul Johnson... see your formation and know instantly how to attack it. So with NCAA 12 I had to start running other offenses... my passing has suffered greatly! Up until last night I was still using the old PS2 bad habit of passing. I'd adjusted it a bit but was throwing outside when I intended to throw inside and vice versa. Basically... a lot of my completions where luck! To add to that.. the (THP) Throwing power & (THA) Throwing accuracy of your QB makes a bigger difference than I realized. Not sure how true this is... but it seems on the money. If your QB's THP is less than 83... you will have a difficult time throwing over defenders. That's why you see the superman LB's animation where they jump up and pick a pass going 20 yds down field... but they're only 5yds off LOS. Or your receiver has a DB beat by a few yds... but when you throw it. The defender magically intercepts the pass. I've come to realize that THP matters much more than accuracy IMO. A QB with 91 thp and 70 tha can be more accurate than a QB with 85 THP and 95 THA.

    The stronger the arm the more things you can do like throwing into tight spots and throwing over a DB's head.
     
  17. LEGEND

    LEGEND Well-Known Member

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    1,136
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Team:
    Miami
    Although I've done so with some success... I don't think running this scheme strictly from under center is a good Idea. It can be done... but it's difficult against users. My biggest issue is actually why I started running the scheme... It's simplicity. I've never liked running plays multiple times a game.

    I guess I'm going to have to add some wrinkles to change my feelings on that... :thinking:


    Actually... In a couple of my dynasties. I'm lacking integral pieces to really run it correctly. I'm either lacking depth at receiver... or my QB has below avg arm strength. The latter being the case in at least two. I also have receivers with poor release and route running.. that isn't helping.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  18. Atmore

    Atmore Active Member

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    129
    I'm an option guy and pass ok. I have learned that button press pressure makes a big difference over leading a WR.... Like throwing seams down the hash marks takes slight pressure but not a lot without leading. The ball will cruise right over the defenders head. For the life of me I can't figure out how to throw a bubble screen. I always get bad animations after the catch and get tackled for little gain. I'm still learning what kind of leads to use also and that's why I asked what you meant.

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
     
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  19. LEGEND

    LEGEND Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    1,136
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Team:
    Miami
    :grin:lol

    I myself have had the same problem with bubble, HB, and WR/FL screens. Try changing your QB's to left hand... It's worked for me. I just played a game and threw several bubble, HB, and Wr screens and had only one of the bad animations. Of the 6 or 7 I threw... Only one went for no gain and the one bad animation lost 3 yds.

    You're right about the button press... :thumbsup:

    Like I stated... my throwing was totally backwards on some passes... so changing my QB's has helped instantly.
     
  20. Atmore

    Atmore Active Member

    Posts:
    129
    Like you said about post routes I will press hard inside, then turn into the WR and cut the route off and make the catch. It works against tight man coverage or the CB is in Cover 3. I'll try the left hand thing too.

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
     

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