• Registration is disabled due to constant spammers. Email [email protected] and we will temporarily re-enable registration for you.

Spread Offense

bruin228

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
Whenever I ran Spot from Trio 4WR Str, I just hot routed the back to a flat/swing and motioned to the flat WR to the other side to get a 2x2 alignment. You can do a bunch of other stuff off that motion look.
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
Whenever I ran Spot from Trio 4WR Str, I just hot routed the back to a flat/swing and motioned to the flat WR to the other side to get a 2x2 alignment. You can do a bunch of other stuff off that motion look.

That's funny because I have been doing the reverse of that. Going Spread Flex to Trio 4WR Str via audible. I actually have two of them, one for a bubble screen to the newly motioned slot player and one is Z Spot (to take advantage of people manually trying to jump the bubble).

I might have to think about doing it your way as well, going 3x1 back to 2x2. The flat route would flip with the motion so it'd be easy to get a slant/flat or curl/flat backside with minimal hot routes. I'm already doing a bunch of manual motion in my shallow and screen game, if I could add some to my snag game it would really give opposing users something to think about.

Thinking about it now, I wonder if I might be able to open up some space for my HB on a Swing/Wheel out of 2x2 Spread Flex Z Spot by motioning the spot player in. In Spread Flex he essentially motions to a stack position so in theory, I be able to get more space on the perimeter.
 

NavyHog

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
NCAA Moderator
All of @bruin228's Mesh stuff has me thinking about creating a mesh screen via Slip Screen. Takes the same motion as my HB Crack Screen I mentioned before, but now turns it into a WR Mid Screen, just in formations that don't otherwise have a mid screen available (all offset formations with a TE, wing or on line).


Would pair it with manual motion with either the decoy WR or the intended WR and throw. It is a slip screen but the pass is completed right at or behind the line of scrimmage so it is still legal within our rules. If I got pressure or press man I'd throw the HB wheel out of the backfield as an alert.

Works alright if you get the timing right and the blocks to match up. Occasionally the underneath WR will get lost in traffic and it'll just go incomplete. I like it a little bit better than using the in/out to the HB to adjust slip screen just because there is a little less congestion and there is also some built in misdirection since most users won't be thinking "mid screen" in these formations. It works in just about every offset wing formation and even the offset with a TE on the line formations.

Can't imagine anyone would call it out for cheese or against the rules since the throw is right at the LOS. And that's without even aiming it, if I had to I could aim low and have him come back behind the LOS like I do on the in/out slip screen.

The best version of the in/out slip screen I have found so far is actually in various Split Offset formations, using either Mtn Cross Screen or the base Slip Screen.

In Split Offset, using Slip Screen:


All I'm doing is keying the flat defender, which in this case becomes the MLB. He widens, I throw the "out" middle screen to the second back. Had he stayed home or I got a CB blitz or something where the flat defender is MIA, I just throw the wheel out there looking to cut back behind the blocks.

Same thing with the Mtn Cross Screen from Split Y Offset:


In this case, I'm keying the flat defender to the orbit motion side. If he stays home, I go back side to the "out" middle screen. If there is a blitz, no flat defender or a user is in man to man and forgets to cover the HB manually, I'll just lob the orbit swing screen out there. Hopefully getting it to him before he stops so he catches it on the move.

I've come up with a few other variations of screens but these have been my three favorite so far, in addition to my standard bubble, now and triple screens.

What I really want is some TE screens. I've played around with a few different options but haven't liked them. The "best" one so far is using PA WR Screen in either Normal Offset or Y Trips Offset and hot routing the TE to a flat. It isn't perfect, but it usually gets a few yards. I like the one in Normal Offset the most because you still get a SE/Now screen to the twin WR side and then you get a TE flat screen to the other which is solid vs press. The only other idea is just to put a TE at one of the HB or WR spots to run any of the screens above. It isn't a legit TE screen but it at least gets my TE the ball. Not sure how else to make it work.

On the first and second clip your guy caught the pass beyond the LOS. I think your pushing some AI limits and I'm opposed.
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
On the first and second clip your guy caught the pass beyond the LOS. I think your pushing some AI limits and I'm opposed.

On neither clip did they catch the ball beyond the line of scrimmage.

Not even remotely close actually.
 

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
On neither clip did they catch the ball beyond the line of scrimmage.

Not even remotely close actually.

I'd say you're teetering on the edge of exploit land. I know you're trying to make real concepts, but if you hot route a ton, it can break the games logic.

I can understand double screens with the default routes or swing routes, but drags? Idk, man. That's pushing it to me.

You don't have to be THAT varied in your screen game. How many screens are you throwing per game? Even the pirate only throws about a half dozen.
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
I'd say you're teetering on the edge of exploit land. I know you're trying to make real concepts, but if you hot route a ton, it can break the games logic.

I can understand double screens with the default routes or swing routes, but drags? Idk, man. That's pushing it to me.

You don't have to be THAT varied in your screen game. How many screens are you throwing per game? Even the pirate only throws about a half dozen.

Well first thing up front, I haven't run Screen #1 in game with the drag. When I went into an actual exhibition mode game to test it, it never worked (pass hit the OL every time) so I haven't run it and have no intention to. My sliders in practice mode are turned way down to create a 7 on 7 drill atmosphere and it was giving me false results, using game sliders, it never worked. I do run screen 2 and 3 in game and have yet to have any of them completed beyond the line of scrimmage.

Huh? LOS is the 30. 1st clip he catches it on the 28.5, 2nd clip is on the 29. So uh yeah they did.

In videos 2 and 3, the screens I have run in game, the passes are very clearly completed behind the line of scrimmage. The ball is spotted past the 30, pass completed at the 30. Every time I've run it in live game action, on or offline, it has been completed behind the line of scrimmage. More often than not, it is completed 2-3 yards behind the LOS because in game action I'm typically throwing it off my back foot. In practice mode, I have pass rush turned to zero so I can practice essentially 7 on 7 and not have to worry about pressure while I'm practicing routes. That means my feet set and throw and the ball drifts.
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
I'd say you're teetering on the edge of exploit land. I know you're trying to make real concepts, but if you hot route a ton, it can break the games logic.

I can understand double screens with the default routes or swing routes, but drags? Idk, man. That's pushing it to me.

You don't have to be THAT varied in your screen game. How many screens are you throwing per game? Even the pirate only throws about a half dozen.

By the way, @JSU Zack, to answer your questions:

I run 3-5 screens with OL releasing down field a game. Max. If we include bubble/now screens, it is between 5-10 but since we aren't talking about bubble/now, we'll ignore that. Using tonight's game as an example, I ran 4 screens involving OL releasing down the field. 1 2x2 Triple Screen that was a dropped INT, 1 Full House Triple Screen that was a 4 yard loss, 1 screen like Video 3 which was a dropped INT and 1 screen like Video 2 which went for a 29 yard TD. On that TD, the user was in 335 Stack Press Man, blitzing all 3 LB and manually blitzed the man (FS) assigned to the back who caught the pass. 4 screens of 30 pass attempts and 61 total plays, that's around 6% of my total snaps if I'm doing the mental math right. That's nothing. I threw 4 bubble screens as well, which is automatic vs uncovered slot for me and almost all of my formations have a PA Bubble audible.

To be honest, I DO have to be THAT varied with my screen game. Bubble, now and mid screens are rendered worthless by press man coverage and literally all I see any more is press man coverage. You know that as well as I do @JSU Zack because you and I are defended exactly the same. If I'm going to face press man across the board and all these exotic, unrealistic, absurd fronts, I'm going to run dual read slow screens.

I am tired of punching myself in the dick trying to run right into a exotic front, loaded box, 335 defenses with safeties manually walked down to the linebacker level or manually controlled DL. I'm done doing that. If someone, and it seems like most people these days, want to sit in a 335 and shift their front all to hell and walk players down to unrealistic positions (something that IS illegal)... I'm going to run my completely legal and completely realistic screen game to take advantage of it. These screens are specifically aimed to attack the 335 by reading off of the overhang safety. I'm tired of watching people exploit the game and call it defense and since no one seems to give a shit about that, my give a fuck level about what people think of my screen game is at zero.
 
Last edited:

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
By the way, @JSU Zack, to answer your questions:

I run 3-5 screens with OL releasing down field a game. Max. If we include bubble/now screens, it is between 5-10 but since we aren't talking about bubble/now, we'll ignore that. Using tonight's game as an example, I ran 4 screens involving OL releasing down the field. 1 2x2 Triple Screen that was a dropped INT, 1 Full House Triple Screen that was a 4 yard loss, 1 screen like Video 3 which was a dropped INT and 1 screen like Video 2 which went for a 29 yard TD. On that TD, the user was in 335 Stack Press Man, blitzing all 3 LB and manually blitzed the man (FS) assigned to the back who caught the pass. 4 screens of 30 pass attempts and 61 total plays, that's around 6% of my total snaps if I'm doing the mental math right. That's nothing. I threw 4 bubble screens as well, which is automatic vs uncovered slot for me and almost all of my formations have a PA Bubble audible.

To be honest, I DO have to be THAT varied with my screen game. Bubble, now and mid screens are rendered worthless by press man coverage and literally all I see any more is press man coverage. You know that as well as I do @JSU Zack because you and I are defended exactly the same. If I'm going to face press man across the board and all these exotic, unrealistic, absurd fronts, I'm going to run dual read slow screens.

I am tired of punching myself in the dick trying to run right into a exotic front, loaded box, 335 defenses with safeties manually walked down to the linebacker level or manually controlled DL. I'm done doing that. If someone, and it seems like most people these days, want to sit in a 335 and shift their front all to hell and walk players down to unrealistic positions (something that IS illegal)... I'm going to run my completely legal and completely realistic screen game to take advantage of it. These screens are specifically aimed to attack the 335 by reading off of the overhang safety. I'm tired of watching people exploit the game and call it defense and since no one seems to give a shit about that, my give a fuck level about what people think of my screen game is at zero.

Quite thorough.

Would it just be better to run regular passes at attack the fronts?

I've had a lot of success attack the safety that's out of position. You'll have a 3 & out or two, but it only takes one lethal strike.
 

NavyHog

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
NCAA Moderator
LOL you are one crazy SOB sometimes (and I say that with some degree of admiration). The ball is on the 30. Practice mode puts the ball on the 30. The OL splits, the WR are all lined up as if the ball is on the 30. In the first 2 clips the receiver catches the ball a good yard past the LOS.

Please someone else weigh in here. I'm getting older, and my eyesight isn't what it used to be, but if that's not the 30 for the LOS, and if that is not the receiver catching the ball at the 29 then I guess I don't understand the LOS.

Here is a picture I just took of practice mode.

image.jpeg
 

nofx94

Active Member
I'm not even online, but the results of QBA5 from some Heisman sliders I got from here or OS were the whole reason I went into the pass clinic thread. "I must be doing something wrong. How do people play each other with this shit going on?"
 

guardman23

Well-Known Member
I'm not even online, but the results of QBA5 from some Heisman sliders I got from here or OS were the whole reason I went into the pass clinic thread. "I must be doing something wrong. How do people play each other with this shit going on?"
Run run screen run
 

NavyHog

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
NCAA Moderator
I'm not even online, but the results of QBA5 from some Heisman sliders I got from here or OS were the whole reason I went into the pass clinic thread. "I must be doing something wrong. How do people play each other with this shit going on?"

It prevents every pass from being 100% on the money. It allows for a few WTF Matt Cassel like throws. It forces people to set their feet and not rocket everything. No it's not perfect, but it beats the alternative IMO.

Here are the passing leaders in the ACC user OD. Wake Forest @bluejay13 is completing 78%, @Akecheta is at 72% and I'm at 70%.

image.jpeg
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
LOL you are one crazy SOB sometimes (and I say that with some degree of admiration). The ball is on the 30. Practice mode puts the ball on the 30. The OL splits, the WR are all lined up as if the ball is on the 30. In the first 2 clips the receiver catches the ball a good yard past the LOS.

Please someone else weigh in here. I'm getting older, and my eyesight isn't what it used to be, but if that's not the 30 for the LOS, and if that is not the receiver catching the ball at the 29 then I guess I don't understand the LOS.

Here is a picture I just took of practice mode.

View attachment 2144

You are aware you can move the football in practice mode, right? It hadn't occurred to you that the ball had been moved when the ball is clearly being snapped from the left side of the field? I never keep the ball middle-middle at the 30 in practice mode, how many times does that happen in game? Once after a touchback?

Compare where the center is aligned in your picture to how he is aligned in mine? Surely you're not so old that you can't tell that my center is completely over the 30 yard line with the ball not even touching the 30. If you are THAT old, you might want to be looking into a retirement home, not my screen tactics.

Screen Shot 2015-12-21 at 00.37.56.png

Just for reference sake, where I caught the ball on Screens 3 and 2:

Screen Shot 2015-12-21 at 00.40.02.png Screen Shot 2015-12-21 at 00.41.43.png

It doesn't take Hawkeye eyesight to see that the ball was clearly caught at or behind the line of scrimmage. Whether the line of scrimmage were the 30 or ahead of it, for that matter. Just like it always is when thrown.
 

nofx94

Active Member
It prevents every pass from being 100% on the money. It allows for a few WTF Matt Cassel like throws. It forces people to set their feet and not rocket everything. No it's not perfect, but it beats the alternative IMO.

Here are the passing leaders in the ACC user OD. Wake Forest @bluejay13 is completing 78%, @Akecheta is at 72% and I'm at 70%.

View attachment 2146
As I'm not in anyone's dynasty, I'm not complaining about anyone's dynasty's rules. I'm just trying to get better for it for my own enjoyment. So tips are always welcome, but I'm not sure exactly what this has to do with what I exactly was saying.
 

Akecheta

Well-Known Member
As I'm not in anyone's dynasty, I'm not complaining about anyone's dynasty's rules. I'm just trying to get better for it for my own enjoyment. So tips are always welcome, but I'm not sure exactly what this has to do with what I exactly was saying.

I hate QBA 5, I detest it, even in this OD where some how I'm at apparently 72% I think its a complete and utter joke that makes me want to throw my controller out the window....without opening it. With that said the things I have learned are

1. You will throw picks even when your WR is wide open, because your QB will throw the ball 20 yards away in a random direction.
2. You will throw picks because you make bad reads
3. You will notice every fucked up throw your guy makes and every spot on ridiculous throw your opp makes
4. You will never like the 5 QBA
5. Learn to throw 500 screens, shallows, crosses, hooks a game if you want to get completions.
6. 5 QBA is quite possibly the worst slider that anyone come to be set on in the history of sports gaming.
 

nofx94

Active Member
I've had seasons with high completion percentage. I'm just trying to figure out how to limit picks. Evidently guided passing is a death warrant
 

Akecheta

Well-Known Member
I've had seasons with high completion percentage. I'm just trying to figure out how to limit picks. Evidently guided passing is a death warrant
High and Outside seems to be the only way guided passes arent fucked. Or lobbing when you should bullet and bullet when you should lob
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
Quite thorough.

Would it just be better to run regular passes at attack the fronts?

I've had a lot of success attack the safety that's out of position. You'll have a 3 & out or two, but it only takes one lethal strike.

@guardman23's response was spot on. Until you know your QB is in a groove, there is just no way of knowing if you can attack press man Cover Zero (or Man Free) with traditional passes. Even with screens there are times you'll launch one 15 yards ahead of or beyond the receiver.

Like I said, I'm running no more than a handful of these screens a game and typically in the 3-4 range. It is almost always a 1st down off of tempo call for me, knowing I can get to it undetected and make the hot route and snap the ball before users notice the different alignment (using Mtn Cross Screen as the base has the "screen" back lined up different and it is noticeable to any user because it is the only play that has that alignment in the entire game).

More often than not, I am attacking it with my drop back game and attacking the fronts with my run game (Counter Y has become a staple for me to attack 335) but this is just another tool to do it and have a fairly safe pass that doesn't require QBA 5's cooperation or my receivers getting off of press. It is completed behind the LOS every time.

Just off the top of my head tonight, of my 29 pass attempts by Watson tonight, I believe I completed 21. 7 were to my TE, 4 to my slot WR on Bubble, 3 or 4 were to my other slot mostly on corner/wheel type stuff, 3-4 to Williams mostly on spot/snag, and just one was to a HB. We aren't talking about a huge chunk of offense here, tonight it was 6% of my total offensive snaps and two fell incomplete and one was a loss. The one that wasn't isn't going to get a whole lot of sympathy from me considering it was a 335 Stack All LB Blitz with the manually controlled FS assigned to cover my HB walked inside of the LB and manually blitzed. It was a 29 yard TD that was caught 2 full yards behind the LOS, which I can verify because the user defender dove at the feet of my HB trying to stop him when he realized what was happening so I took a particular notice. If someone is going to play like that, they deserve to be screened 50 times a game, not 4.
 

NavyHog

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
NCAA Moderator
It's close to being some borderline BS. I'm done with this argument.

Agree to disagree because it looks past the LOS to me.
 

bruin228

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
It prevents every pass from being 100% on the money. It allows for a few WTF Matt Cassel like throws. It forces people to set their feet and not rocket everything. No it's not perfect, but it beats the alternative IMO.

Here are the passing leaders in the ACC user OD. Wake Forest @bluejay13 is completing 78%, @Akecheta is at 72% and I'm at 70%.

View attachment 2146

I was at like 80% so the CPU must really suck lol
 

NavyHog

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
NCAA Moderator
High and Outside seems to be the only way guided passes arent fucked. Or lobbing when you should bullet and bullet when you should lob

I directional pass skinny post and seam routes away from the coverage. That's about the only route I use it on and I usually don't try it until I think my QB is warmed up.
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
It's close to being some borderline BS. I'm done with this argument.

Agree to disagree because it looks past the LOS to me.

I know you like to play devils advocate sometimes but there are only two options here. Agree or you're Stevie Wonder blind. Even if we want to say the ball is on the 30 (which I mean, the ball is clearly not even touching the 30), look where I caught the ball in each of those pictures. On top he is a full yard plus behind the 30 and on the bottom he is standing directly on the 30. What are you even arguing here? Even if we want to be safe and say his feet are at the 29 (they clearly are not), the ball is the only thing that matters both in our rules and for ineligible man down the field in real life. Like, surely you can't argue that. Look at any freeze frame of those two videos. At no point does the ball ever cross the 30 in the air. Even on the top video, which I said I have never and will never run in game, he's standing just past the 29 and coming back and reaching for the ball.

And if you don't want to believe that, go to any offset gun formation and hot route the back to an in or out route. The play art directly intersects the ball, running straight along the line of scrimmage. Since even Stevie Wonder can see enough to realize that the back didn't move up the field at all in either of those plays, common sense would make it clear that the ball was caught at or behind the line of scrimmage.

Since I'm sure you can't be bothered to do it, allow me. Exactly the same formation, exactly the same base play, exactly the same hot routes, thrown exactly the same.

IMG_1505.JPG


The ball is not thrown or caught beyond the line of scrimmage. Ever. I know this because I practice it, A LOT. I don't just make this shit up as ways to fuck with people. Like everything I do, it is grounded in both our rules and reality. I'm not hot routing him to a route down the field, I'm not throwing the ball beyond the line of scrimmage, none of the intended routes are even being run beyond line of scrimmage.

I could run that screen 50 times in a row and not once have it completed beyond the line of scrimmage and I would happily defend any single one I have thrown or will throw in any game. If someone has a problem with any of them, they are free to provide proof that the ball was thrown beyond the line of scrimmage and on the off chance I do throw it beyond the line of scrimmage one out of those 50 times, I'll gladly take a loss for the same amount of yards I gained on the following play including the loss of down.

Until any of those things happen, the amount of fucks I give about people complaining about my screen game is zero. And considering these screens were designed as a direct response to the jacked up, glitched out, game exploiting defenses that are running rampant in both of these ODs, you'll excuse me if I don't give a shit about someone nitpicking if my back's right pinky toe is over the line of scrimmage on a screen pass that is very clearly designed and run within the rules.
 
Last edited:

NavyHog

Well-Known Member
Utopia Moderator
NCAA Moderator
@TXHusker05

Okay I am a lot less cantankerous than I was last night. Fair enough I buy your arguments although I still don't agree on some aspects.

What I will say is doing those kinds of hot routes, even if they may be a tiny fraction behind the LOS (and I'm still not convinced they are), if it leaves a perception that it is an unfair advantage then it shouldn't be called. I'm not the commish and when/if you run them against me I probably will not say a thing.
 

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
I love when people bitch about screens cause what are you spose to do when they blitz every down

I call very few screens but see 9 man boxes all game. There are other solutions that are honestly less risky if you know what you're doing.

That being said, EA made the screens damn near impossible to stop (along with the Texas and Bench concepts).
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
I call very few screens but see 9 man boxes all game. There are other solutions that are honestly less risky if you know what you're doing.

That being said, EA made the screens damn near impossible to stop (along with the Texas and Bench concepts).

The reason they are "impossible to stop" is because they are typically being called against defenses they are intended to defeat. Screens really aren't that hard to stop in this game, even my screens. If someone has a sound defensive alignment pre-snap, I typically won't even call a screen and I'll check out of it. But if someone is blitzing heavy or loading the box and not covering slots or playing hyper aggressive with their user safety, I'll screen people to death.

One of the favorite tricks of people in our ODs is man across the board, but user controlling the defender assigned to the tailback. Most people know very few users in our ODs throw to backs and so they'll free roam with that defender, keeping man across the board and the deep shell intact. You have to get the ball to the back some how and my double and triple screens were designed specifically for that. "Hey look at those receivers over there" and then swing it out to the back they were supposed to be covering.

My new adjusted double screen from Split (from earlier in this thread) where I'm actually reading a player and running two screens to one side has been a bit more hit or miss than I anticipated. In practice mode, the underneath screen came open more than anything. In live game action, the swing screen is typically the one that is open but I'd really rather not throw that.
 

guardman23

Well-Known Member
Found something I can add to my spread attack in Madden kind of like the ole Miss or Auburn play 4 verts slide protect the line to the side of the back hot route the back to a wheel sprint out to that side an read the flat defender if he stays with the back pull it down an run if he comes up throw it over his head to the back
 

Atmore

Active Member
Found something I can add to my spread attack in Madden kind of like the ole Miss or Auburn play 4 verts slide protect the line to the side of the back hot route the back to a wheel sprint out to that side an read the flat defender if he stays with the back pull it down an run if he comes up throw it over his head to the back
Lame lobby heads do that all game with ORE, TA&M and Ohio St....then they mix in read option, audible to 5 wide just to scramble and bunch formations....

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
 

Atmore

Active Member
If that's all there doing its easy to stop but I don't see nothing wrong with mixing it in
I didn't say it was hard but it's lame playing someone who does 5 plays all game.... Not saying you're one of them usually all of that goes together.... I know lobby is lobby but that's where I see what you described alot....

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
 

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
@SyedSchemes did a great breakdown of the Carolina run game. When the hell did Shula learn this?!

RPO-Buck.png
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
@SyedSchemes did a great breakdown of the Carolina run game. When the hell did Shula learn this?!

RPO-Buck.png

By asking Cam Newton... "Cam, what are your favorite plays from your time at Auburn" and then writing them down. That's ripped straight out of Auburn's playbook from when Cam was there, just dressed a little differently (no receivers play side to crack the first LB, instead it's paired with a screen). Looks like they use pin & pull rules up front as well since the BSG and C switched roles because that 1 technique is shaded way over into a 2/2i.

From Cam's time at Auburn:

QB%2BSweep.PNG
 

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
I assume Shula met with some spread coaches over the years, but that offense looks completely different to what he used in Tuscaloosa. He ran mostly zone from one back. Now, he's pulling guards like crazy.
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
I assume Shula met with some spread coaches over the years, but that offense looks completely different to what he used in Tuscaloosa. He ran mostly zone from one back. Now, he's pulling guards like crazy.

That's the beauty of going of pin & pull. You're still "zone" and you're teaching zone rules and nothing really changes from an ID and communication perspective so you can add pullers without really changing anything.

I'd say it is a lot easier going from being zone only to integrating some gap schemes than being gap/man only and going to zone. Once you have the foundation set with zone, you can really tweak it to do anything you want. When you have a Cam Newton type talent, you put your stuff aside and figure out every possible way you can let him prosper.

Mike Riley's offense at Nebraska is another good example. Mike Riley was one back zone with a pro passing attack his entire career. Pretty much inside zone, fly sweep and the occasional draw and a ton of screens. That wasn't going to fly at Nebraska and didn't mesh with Nebraska's talent and so they really started plugging in a bunch of QB run stuff (power/counter), unique QB Sweep plays with OZ rules, two back under center stuff including a shit ton of traps and fullback trap is a good way to give Nebraska fans wood.

You can't be married to one thing as a coach, especially an offensive coach. Even guys like Malzahn and Meyer who are known for a very specific scheme have gone through a ton of changes year to year.
 

nofx94

Active Member
What are the best of the gun H-back formations?
I know there's Normal offset weak, Normal flex wing offset and weak, normal wing offset and weak, wing-trips offset and weak, and wing trio offset and weak. Which are the most effective passing and running? Which do y'all favor?
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
What are the best of the gun H-back formations?
I know there's Normal offset weak, Normal flex wing offset and weak, normal wing offset and weak, wing-trips offset and weak, and wing trio offset and weak. Which are the most effective passing and running? Which do y'all favor?

Oh man I could write a dissertation on this topic because I've spent an ungodly number of hours of my life trying to figure out which is best and why and also which I need/don't need. I'll give you a quick breakdown of each off the top of my head and then let you know which I typically use and why.

Split Y Offset - Fine if you're an option team and it has the 3 auto-orbit motion plays but otherwise lacking.

Slot F Wing - Killer formation *IF* you're a 21/12 personnel pro spread type of team. The combo of speed option, read option and dive are deadly and it has a shockingly good pass game selection. Don't sleep on HB Toss out of that formation as well (but only run it to the right).

Normal Flex Wing - Decent formation because it is one of the few formations in the game to have a Fk Jet Dive play (and the only 11 personnel formation with it). If you run Jet, I'd recommend it for that. Otherwise you can skip it.

Normal Flex Wing Wk - Possibly the best, if not the second best, wing gun formation in the game. Has all the core plays including Counter, Power, Read, Split Zone, Split Zone Read, Shovel plus a nice selection of pass plays including the only PA Read play in the game that is an NCAA route (Post/Dig). I'd say this is the best passing wing formation.

Normal Offset Wk - If Normal Flex Wing Wk is not the best, this one is because it has all the same stuff as above but adds PA Bubble (quick audible as long as you remove all the other PA) and it has the Mtn Swing Screen that I create.

Normal Wing Offset - Borderline useless formation unless you happen to like the 3 H-Back auto-motion plays. As someone who hates auto-motion, it's pointless.

Wing Offset - Really good formation because it has both Z Spot and PA Read (Flood) and it has a unique mix of jet/orbit auto-motion because because it is 20 personnel, it makes it really tough to use if you're a HUNH team.

Wing Offset Wk - Probably my third favorite of the group, if only because of the PA Jet Wheelies play. That play just wrecks people because so many people just ignore the H-Back out of the backfield.

Wing Trips Offset - Similar to Normal Wing Offset, this formation does not offer a whole lot BUT unlike Normal Wing Offset it does offer a PA Bubble and PA SE Screen combo. If you limit the plays in this formation to Dive, Read, Slot Option, PA Bubble, PA SE and Fk Screen Wheel, it can be really effective.

Wing Trips Offset Wk - Great formation but the lack of a bubble is frustrating. Does have the motion swing screen play though.

F Twins Over - Not offset but a great formation none the less, has just about everything you could need.

Empty Wing Trio - Underrated Empty formation because it's one of the few that has a HB @ QB package. If you want "wildcat" but don't want to go through the bother of actual Wildcat formations, it's great. I could run that QB Power all day, especially down on the goal line with HB1 at QB.

Pistol Wing Trio/Offset - Not Gun, but deserves a special shoutout because it's a hell of a formation. Wing Trio and Offset are the same but there's a glitch in the game that lists them separately when you create a playbook. Suffer from the same problem as Wing Offset in that its 20 personnel, but a great formation with really nice Power and Counter plays plus that Zone Wk play which is awesome. In the original version of my Spread-I, I used this as a base and then had LB/RB audibles to "jump" to Gun Wing Offset Wk/Wing Offset to counter people gaming my reads.

====================
Personally, I settled on using:

Normal Flex Wing (for the 3 Jet plays only)
Normal Flex Wing Wk
Normal Offset Wk
Wing Offset
Wing Offset Wk
Wing Trips Offset
Wing Trips Offset Wk
Empty Wing Trio

8 formations, ~70 plays. It is a lot and there is a TON of overlap, but each individual formation offers a subtle tweak that I felt I needed for my offense. Because I'm an entirely offset gun offense, I felt that I just needed the subtle changes each individual formation offered. In a perfect world, all I'd need is 4 formations: Slant Twins/Trips and Stack Twins/Trips with every concept available in each but this is EA world where shit makes no sense from an organizational standpoint so here we are.

Gun to my head, if I had to narrow it down, I'd pick Normal Flex Wing Wk, Normal Offset Wk and Wing Offset. In reality, I could probably get away with solely Normal Offset Wk. It's the one I use most by a long shot. It has all the core run plays for my offense, it has bubble to stress the alley defender when people try to load the box, it has the Motion Swing Screen I use as a base for my swing screen.

Which formations you pick really depends on what you're trying to do. If you're running option, I'd highly recommend sticking with the formations where the slot WR is off the LOS. Better selection of option plays including motion options. If you're running more inside zone/PA, the formations where the slot WR is on the LOS are better because most have both iso and split zone (with read off both) and the pass concepts are better. If you're more of a pro style power/counter team, Normal Flex Wing Wk and Wing Offset Wk are the only two formations with both. Power works great in those formations IF you treat it like a sweep play and take it around the tackle. If you try to run actual power (following the BSG) it will fail miserably. I'd highly recommend Pistol Wing Trio/Slot Flex Wing instead if you're more pro power/counter and/or Slot F Wing if you're more 21/12 personnel.

In short:

Best Passing: Normal Flex Wing Wk
Best Running: Normal Flex Wing Wk
Best Overall: Normal Offset Wk (Solely because of that PA Bubble)​
 

nofx94

Active Member
@TXHusker05 mad thorough. I'm trying to get away from being so triple option focused and develop more of a passing game and rely on a downhill run. I'm thinking IZ, OZ, counter, ZR, and then QB blast, power, and wrap. Basing my passing game on stick, flood, smash, and cross.

So right now I've been brainstorming and rough drafting a playbook that's mostly inline gun 10 and 11 personnel with a couple 12 personnel sets and then corresponding pistol sets. But I love wing trips offset (pistol) and as I've recruited a bunch of tight ends I want to include some H-back stuff.

Trying to marry what I perceive as Air Raid and H-back concepts for a sophisticated but not over-complicated big-body spread.

I'm also trying to get away from being so two-back focused and use more one-back.

Definitely going to include Empty Wing trio. Thinking I need another empty set with it. Empty TE trips or Empty spread or quads. Idk

---
What I have written down right now:

Pistol: full house, strong, strong slot, weak slot, ace, twins, twin tight slot, trips, wing trips offset, y trips, trips 4-wide, spread

Gun: ace, twins, twin te slot, normal, normal wk, normal Y-flex, spread, spread flex, spread flex weak, trips, trips weak, trips open, wing trips offset

I could probably add normal flex wing weak and normal offset weak, and wing trio offset.

I just don't want to neuter my passing options because of additions of certain running foils. I definitely like jet and PA jet. So many options in seeking philosophic purity while using a lot of formations.
 
Last edited:

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
If like to add the other two pistol H formations:
Pistol Normal Flex Wing and Wing Trips are golden. The flanker screens in both formations are what QB coaches call "turn & rip it" plays - they allow you to throw the ball as soon as you catch the snap. This means the screens hit faster than another other in the game because the QB has 0 footwork other than turning to the receiver.

This pair of formations also have all your downhill runs, PA slide that works off the slice block, and the Hank variant of curls (curl/flat plus a settle in the middle).

Wing Trips has one of my favorite plays, rollout smash. This combined with the screens and playaction make this a great constraint formation for aggressive run defenses.

Pro tip:
The flood concepts in both formations can be turned into shallow cross with a few hot routes.

Bonus:
Motion the H back to the slot for more passing options via hot routes.

Jacksonville State broke a record last year for single game rushing yards in NCAA history using these two formations exclusively.
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
Pistol Slot Flex Wing is great and I actually use it to create "Army Throwback" in Malzahn's offense.

BlackArmyThrowback_zps8e4484c4.png


Just flip the formation (if your QB is right handed), hot route the H-back to a wheel and then you can do whatever with the twin receivers. I prefer pivot/dig to sort of combine army throwback with little rock/NCAA (post dig). I love that play, that's one of my home run plays.

If you don't want to use option, I'd highly recommend sticking with the Pistol stuff and maybe Normal Flex Wing Wk and/or Normal Offset Wk. With Pistol you can be power/counter, sprinkle in a read here and there and still run legit bootleg play action plays and stuff like that.
 

nofx94

Active Member
So I had this cool Spread-I/air raid offense worked out in theory but it didn't translate well to practice with my current personnel. Replacing my 99 OVR (94 spd) QB Ayo Armstrong is new 99 OVR (83 spd) QB Chad Mackey (who I made left handed for fun) with a 90 OVR (79 spd) backup. And my top two backs left (graduation for the senior Ryan Reid, draft for the junior Ed Thomas), leaving Rasheed Huff (91 ovr senior) in charge. My top offensive players besides the quarterback are third-year starters at wide receiver, both designated impact guys. So I had to create an offense that utilizes their talents.

The current playbook is designated spread but is actually more one-back, if you're into splitting hairs.

ACE: Slot, Spread, Trio, Trio 4 WR, Trips, Trips 4WR, Y Trips
PISTOL: Slot, Spread, Trio, Trio 4WR, Trips, Trips 4WR, Trips Open, Y Trips
GUN: Normal, Normal HB WK, Split Offset, Spread, Spread Flex, Spread HB WK, Trips, Trips HB WK, Trips Open, Y Trips, Y Trips WK
I Normal

I feel like I'm forgetting something, but I'm not sure what. It's all 10/11 except for Split Offset and I Normal (which I don't even think I've rolled-out in-game yet), and I know it's not many more formations than this. In my new conferences, Georgia is in the ACC North with Georgia Tech, South Carolina, Clemson, Georgia State and Florida State. ACCS is Florida, Miami, USF, UCF, FIU, FAU. We're 2-0 right now with 37-35 win over 79/80 OVR USF/UCF and 52-13 over 88/89 OVR South Carolina. After two early picks in the first game, Mackey threw four touchdowns and rushed for another. Huff ran for one. Against South Carolina, he threw six touchdowns and Huff ran for one and caught one. So he's got eleven touchdowns responsible against three turnovers (two picks, fumble first game). Easily my best passing start with this game on these sliders. Excited to see if we can maintain the momentum as the season progresses.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I've finally got around to really taking time and going through my offensive play book! I've gutted most of my formations down to 8-10 plays per formation. In some there are as little as 6 total plays.

At the current point I'm up to 24 formations.... The most I've ever had in any play book b4! I'm still trimming the fat and expect that number to rise. I thinking I may get as high as 30 by time I'm done.

The more I've removed... I've realized many of the plays I loved could be achieved with hot routes. Especially my 11 personnel formations. By adding normal, flex & y flex I'm able to use motion to change the formation to a more advantageous one. It's also funny the more I transition away from one back... The more I find myself using it!

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
@TXHusker05 mad thorough. I'm trying to get away from being so triple option focused and develop more of a passing game and rely on a downhill run. I'm thinking IZ, OZ, counter, ZR, and then QB blast, power, and wrap. Basing my passing game on stick, flood, smash, and cross.

So right now I've been brainstorming and rough drafting a playbook that's mostly inline gun 10 and 11 personnel with a couple 12 personnel sets and then corresponding pistol sets. But I love wing trips offset (pistol) and as I've recruited a bunch of tight ends I want to include some H-back stuff.

Trying to marry what I perceive as Air Raid and H-back concepts for a sophisticated but not over-complicated big-body spread.

I'm also trying to get away from being so two-back focused and use more one-back.

Definitely going to include Empty Wing trio. Thinking I need another empty set with it. Empty TE trips or Empty spread or quads. Idk

---
What I have written down right now:

Pistol: full house, strong, strong slot, weak slot, ace, twins, twin tight slot, trips, wing trips offset, y trips, trips 4-wide, spread

Gun: ace, twins, twin te slot, normal, normal wk, normal Y-flex, spread, spread flex, spread flex weak, trips, trips weak, trips open, wing trips offset

I could probably add normal flex wing weak and normal offset weak, and wing trio offset.

I just don't want to neuter my passing options because of additions of certain running foils. I definitely like jet and PA jet. So many options in seeking philosophic purity while using a lot of formations.
I'm pretty much doing the same thing! I'm running IZ/OZ/ read with QB power, Wrap, Blast etc.. My passing game is identical also! I'm in love with stick and mix that and the others you have in with levels and smash

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I gotta come up with something to combat 5 Qba! It's frustrating to play an entire game afraid to attempt a pass! I still don't agree with playing with 5 Qba... but whatever!

It's ridiculous when your 89 Ovr QB with 90 Thp & 83 Tha can't throw simple slants or outs! In my game last night... I had guys wide open! My QB misses by a city block directly to a safety just standing in the middle of field covering no one!

I wouldn't mind 5 QBA if it wasn't for that... It tends to always miss directly to a defender! This defender was no where near the intended receiver yet gets a gift pick!

I don't know... I'm going to try a offline dyn with the same sliders as the powerhouse dyn. If that doesn't correct some of my problems.... I'm just gonna quit playing dynasties with 5 QBA!

Any suggestions?

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk
 
Top