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Principles of Pro Style Offenses

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
Yeah it helped me against all you guys in the first season. Because the game is so heavily geared towards the Spread. Coming out in heavy sets is a good change up.

Yeah I've noticed a ton more success in my heavy Pistol sets. I am pretty much in 12/21/20/30 personnel the entire game these days. I very rarely go 10 or 11 personnel and when I do, it is usually a late & close or two minute situation.

I've been messing around with my personnel quite a bit. Putting HBs at a sort of Wingback position in Pistol Twin TE Slot, putting receivers in the backfield and then motioning them out. It breaks tendencies quite a bit because people see "heavy" personnel and get into a generic base defense and then I use motion to spread it out some.

My personnel at Nebraska let me do a lot of really unique things. I have TEs I can use as FBs or WRs, HBs I can use at WR/WB and FBs that move all over. I do a lot more with personnel than I do with concepts these days.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Yeah I've noticed a ton more success in my heavy Pistol sets. I am pretty much in 12/21/20/30 personnel the entire game these days. I very rarely go 10 or 11 personnel and when I do, it is usually a late & close or two minute situation.

I've been messing around with my personnel quite a bit. Putting HBs at a sort of Wingback position in Pistol Twin TE Slot, putting receivers in the backfield and then motioning them out. It breaks tendencies quite a bit because people see "heavy" personnel and get into a generic base defense and then I use motion to spread it out some.

My personnel at Nebraska let me do a lot of really unique things. I have TEs I can use as FBs or WRs, HBs I can use at WR/WB and FBs that move all over. I do a lot more with personnel than I do with concepts these days.

I love to motion either a TE or the HB in Twin TE or Twin TE slot out. It spreads the defense and there's usually a LB out in space trying to cover them. I'm really enjoying the Pistol 12 formations.... I added Ace, Twin TE, Twin TE Slot, and Wing Trips TE to my Pro Spread.

I'm in those 4 formations the entire game! My 11 personnel formations are seeing less & less use these days.
 

TXHusker05

Well-Known Member
NCAA Moderator
I love to motion either a TE or the HB in Twin TE or Twin TE slot out. It spreads the defense and there's usually a LB out in space trying to cover them. I'm really enjoying the Pistol 12 formations.... I added Ace, Twin TE, Twin TE Slot, and Wing Trips TE to my Pro Spread.

I'm in those 4 formations the entire game! My 11 personnel formations are seeing less & less use these days.

Yeah I'm in Twin TE/Twin TE Slot/Wing Over quite a bit. Twin TE Slot being my favorite. I actually play a Wingback at the 2nd wing TE position. Last season it was a receiver, this season a HB who was formerly a WR. Since they were original roster players they have enough block ratings to still run the ball, but I also get a great mismatch if I want to motion that guy out and run a quick route with him.

I love running Smash to the twins side and then motioning that wingback out and running the equivalent of Y Corner to the TE side. Works great. That mismatch is killer.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Going to finally give in and create a structured custom play book today! I've created cpb's but only with formations I liked. I never created one removing plays I don't use and such.

My goal for my 1st play book is no more than 10 plays in each formation. I'm sure most formations will have only 6-8 plays. I've really limited myself by not trimming the fat off my play books. It's never been a problem in the past but seems to really be hurting me now.​
It's only common sense since I like to use the same personnel in many different looks.​
 

SEVERUS

New Member
Are there any formations that can aid in reading man or zone? In years past I would used twins, bunch or tight formations. EA has changed everything.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Are there any formations that can aid in reading man or zone? In years past I would used twins, bunch or tight formations. EA has changed everything.

Don't know if there are any formations that tell... but I was watching a YouTube vid the other day that showed how to tell, by how the CB's lined up.

Look for Cnballard on YouTube the vid says How to read man or zone... Or something along those lines.
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
Are there any formations that can aid in reading man or zone? In years past I would used twins, bunch or tight formations. EA has changed everything.

I don't really know or would like to know because I think its a little unrealistic.

I would suggest focusing on the zone concepts that you will face and let your matchups and ratings take care of the man coverage.

Generally you have your best route runners be the primary targets in your zone beating concept. Soif its zone you beat it withe the concept. If its man you already focused with your best route runners. If you are not overmatched talent wise he should win that matchup.

If you best wrs can't win the one matchups because lack of talent it probably wont matter if you know man is comming or not ur going to be for a long day :p

Also if your having problems with man do yourself a favor and get some good route runnings TE's.
If they are smart they'll get out of it
;)
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SEVERUS

New Member
@ Legend thanks, but I couldn't find the video. I don't think its possible in NCAA 14 @ fanofthegame I know it's unrealistic but I don't have time to lab plays like I want to. Some days I just want to get my 'Peyton Manning' on. I understand almost every passing concept anyway.
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
@ Legend thanks, but I couldn't find the video. I don't think its possible in NCAA 14 @ fanofthegame I know it's unrealistic but I don't have time to lab plays like I want to. Some days I just want to get my 'Peyton Manning' on. I understand almost every passing concept anyway.


I get it. I hope to I did come off as negative in my comments.

I don't pretend to know about how he goes about his buisness but I think having welker, thomas, and a gifted receiving TE makes dealing with man coverage a lot easier lol.


:D

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fanoftgame

Active Member
What are some good running plays from any formation vs.the 3-4 & the 3-3-5?

For me the run game is about numbers and personell(video game wise).

So generally whether there in a 34 or 43 its essentially the same. 2 high defense I can about any play I want. Usually some sort of inside running play to stay away frim corners who are probably in force rolls.

If its its one high you can run 2 ways.

1. Option
2. Run a off tacke or wide(oz, power). However you have to make sure you when the personell battle at poa, because if they can make you cut back to their help they can stuff you.


This where personel comes in. In your question you asked about the 34 and 335. The 34 really isn't to much diferent than running afmgainst 43. Exerpt if they are running solid(bear front). Then just run off tackle plays.

Now the 335 is a nickle defense with a saftey replacing a linebacker.

If its a one high defense I would look to run off tackle from either two te sets or two rbs and a te set.

Reason being in theory your TE or FB should be a blocking miss match on the edge vs a safeties who's job on the run play is to force the ball back in side. If they can't you can run on the outside.


You can also run zone read to get the run game going.


If he is usering the single safety in the middle and playing run you might have to pass because you are outnumbered. Or you can test hus user and see if he can make play.

Or just run flex triple option attack:cool:


Sorry if I made some grammer errors its touvh to write on my phone and I dibt have the patience now to proof read. :DReply to me with any questions

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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
@ Legend thanks, but I couldn't find the video. I don't think its possible in NCAA 14 @ fanofthegame I know it's unrealistic but I don't have time to lab plays like I want to. Some days I just want to get my 'Peyton Manning' on. I understand almost every passing concept anyway.

I'll look for the vid and post the link here when I find it.
 

Craig7835

Well-Known Member
For me the run game is about numbers and personell(video game wise).

So generally whether there in a 34 or 43 its essentially the same. 2 high defense I can about any play I want. Usually some sort of inside running play to stay away frim corners who are probably in force rolls.

If its its one high you can run 2 ways.

1. Option
2. Run a off tacke or wide(oz, power). However you have to make sure you when the personell battle at poa, because if they can make you cut back to their help they can stuff you.


This where personel comes in. In your question you asked about the 34 and 335. The 34 really isn't to much diferent than running afmgainst 43. Exerpt if they are running solid(bear front). Then just run off tackle plays.

Now the 335 is a nickle defense with a saftey replacing a linebacker.

If its a one high defense I would look to run off tackle from either two te sets or two rbs and a te set.

Reason being in theory your TE or FB should be a blocking miss match on the edge vs a safeties who's job on the run play is to force the ball back in side. If they can't you can run on the outside.


You can also run zone read to get the run game going.


If he is usering the single safety in the middle and playing run you might have to pass because you are outnumbered. Or you can test hus user and see if he can make play.

Or just run flex triple option attack:cool:


Sorry if I made some grammer errors its touvh to write on my phone and I dibt have the patience now to proof read. :DReply to me with any questions

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Well the problem I have is that when I run a Read Option vs.3-3-5, the AI BLOWS it up. I can never get any good yardage. Now I have been using plays like HB Smash vs. the 3-4 & have gotten some good yards,but that damn 3-3-5 that I seem to have the most trouble
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Anyone making use of the Shotgun flanker close and Tight formations? Having a lot of fun with these but they lack run plays!

It helps a bit that they lack running plays because your opponent expects pass everytime! Been trying a Close/Bunch/Tight scheme in ranked matches. I've been running well in 2nd half but would like to be able to run more 1st half. I've been up big so run stats may be result of lead...

I'm enjoying creating my on bunch plays from Close & Tight formations. The cpu controlled DB's AI get lost trying to figure which guy to cover in man and the routes shread zone. Scheme reminds me a lot of Baylor in it's simplicity... I removed all the draw plays, I think I'm going to add them back.

Haven't ever been a draw guy... Are they effective in this game?
 
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fanoftgame

Active Member
Well the problem I have is that when I run a Read Option vs.3-3-5, the AI BLOWS it up. I can never get any good yardage. Now I have been using plays like HB Smash vs. the 3-4 & have gotten some good yards,but that damn 3-3-5 that I seem to have the most trouble

Yea the 335 can be tough, bear especially.

I would concentrate my run game on attacking off tackle. Get heavy sets and attack their safety force players.

I guess I shouldn't have mentioned zone read since this is a prostyle thread but look for ones that are outside zone versions.



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fanoftgame

Active Member
Anyone making use of the Shotgun flanker close and Tight formations? Having a lot of fun with these but they lack run plays!

It helps a bit that they lack running plays because your opponent expects pass everytime! Been trying a Close/Bunch/Tight scheme in ranked matches. I've been running well in 2nd half but would like to be able to run more 1st half. I've been up big so run stats may be result of lead...

I'm enjoying creating my on bunch plays from Close & Tight formations. The cpu controlled DB's AI get lost trying to figure which guy to cover in man and the routes shread zone. Scheme reminds me a lot of Baylor in it's simplicity... I removed all the draw plays, I think I'm going to add them back.



Haven't ever been a draw guy... Are they effective in this game?


I haven't ever been able to get them to work. I get stuck or tripped up on my on lineman

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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I haven't ever been able to get them to work. I get stuck or tripped up on my on lineman

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Same here!

Watched a Cluster mini scheme vid on YouTube... Guy used motion with slot receiver to help block. In most SIM dyn's you can't do that. I tried motion but more to give me a numbers advantage. The draw worked better with the motion! I didn't get caught up with my linemen one time.

I motioned slot all the way over and it seemed to change the O line blocking assignments. They got off their blocks and up field quickly! That was against the cpu though... I'll test against ranked online play today.

I'll cut back on some of the tight & close formations too! I tend to over do it with my schemes... I add too much and try it too often!
 

Craig7835

Well-Known Member
Same here!

Watched a Cluster mini scheme vid on YouTube... Guy used motion with slot receiver to help block. In most SIM dyn's you can't do that. I tried motion but more to give me a numbers advantage. The draw worked better with the motion! I didn't get caught up with my linemen one time.

I motioned slot all the way over and it seemed to change the O line blocking assignments. They got off their blocks and up field quickly! That was against the cpu though... I'll test against ranked online play today.

I'll cut back on some of the tight & close formations too! I tend to over do it with my schemes... I add too much and try it too often!

Man post the link of that vid.
 

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
What are some good running plays from any formation vs.the 3-4 & the 3-3-5?

TL;DR: Implement the fullback. I recommend the Power I.

Against odd fronts, you want to run through the B gap between the nose tackle and DE. Runs like inside zone (blast) and misdirection are excellent. If the LB's are busting you in the B gap, bring in the fullback.
In certain formations, you can also call sweeps if you have fast linemen. Want you want for this is to use a 3x1 formation (bunch, twin TE, trips, or trey) with the three receivers/blockers to the boundary to force the defense to defend either the field or your men. This can also work with unbalanced lines (think Strong I Twins Over). It creates a 1/2 man advantage to whatever side has the least defenders; run to that side.
 

PSUEagle

Well-Known Member
@JSU Zack

I disagree with you about getting a good running game going from under center. It's not as easy as running a GSO like most people do, but I can consistently get 5 YPC and above cycling through the following plays from singleback: Dive, Inside Zone, and Outside Zone. I'll also run Draw (usually terrible, but it's good if you catch someone in man to man on 3rd down) and Toss Crack from Bunch/Tight looks.

Thing is, I would argue that play action alone makes having a significant (~50% of your snaps) under center game worth it. For as terrible as it was throughout most of this game's history, it's absurdly overpowered in NCAA 14. You can send a six/seven man blitz and you'll see multiple defenders attempt to tackle the HB, giving the QB all day to let things develop downfield. This has given my offense an explosive vertical element that I haven't been able to do as much in previous versions.
 

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
@JSU Zack

I disagree with you about getting a good running game going from under center. It's not as easy as running a GSO like most people do, but I can consistently get 5 YPC and above cycling through the following plays from singleback: Dive, Inside Zone, and Outside Zone. I'll also run Draw (usually terrible, but it's good if you catch someone in man to man on 3rd down) and Toss Crack from Bunch/Tight looks.

Thing is, I would argue that play action alone makes having a significant (~50% of your snaps) under center game worth it. For as terrible as it was throughout most of this game's history, it's absurdly overpowered in NCAA 14. You can send a six/seven man blitz and you'll see multiple defenders attempt to tackle the HB, giving the QB all day to let things develop downfield. This has given my offense an explosive vertical element that I haven't been able to do as much in previous versions.

Out of the under center formations, the single back sets are by far the best. I've built solid running games off IZ, Trap, and Toss. My issue is with I formation. The fullbacks whiff on blocks all the time. The TE's are typically consistent blockers that only get beat outside every once in a while.

The play action game is definitely worth it. Just don't expect to keep up with the spread guys unless you play stellar defense. You have to play ball control and not make any mistakes.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Been playing a lot of ranked games since the dyn servers went to crap! Must admit, I'm having fun playing ranked games again.

No as much cheesey play as I expected. It's still frustrating as helll when people dashboard though! I really got a grasp of my offense right before the dyn servers went haywire. I had finally put together a proper custom play book too!

Then I actually got my defense set and how I wanted it. Oh well, I'm enjoying running my schemes in ranked matches!
 

PSUEagle

Well-Known Member
@JSU Zack Good defense is nigh impossible in this game. In the few games I play these days, I can get one or two turnovers with superior user skills. Other than that, though, you're not stopping anyone who is good at this game.

In my case, I run my offense as a pass first pro spread. I can easily match someone score for score while often owning TOP (don't really care that much about that, but I do know it can frustrate users when you run 12 play drives that take up half a quarter and you're ahead). My big plays in the passing game usually come from under center, whether singleback or I (and sometimes Empty or Split Backs;)). Ironically, I often find myself going under center to pass while staying in gun to run.

@Craig7835 Bobby Petrino.

I use this website to watch various teams this year: Draft Breakdown Clips are edited down, so I don't have to waste time skipping through shit when someone posts a 2hr + game to Youtube.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
In ranked matches TOP usually equates a win! I try to extend drives and rarely look for the big play or quick score. It does frustrate most because they can't get you off the field. Plus, once you frustrate them... You can see them throwing everything at you!

This opens up your play calling to where just about everything works! I run a pass first pro spread offense... I usually open up in SG flanker close or SG tight. I create my own bunch formations with motion. The motion allows me to get numbers in the run game also.

Once this is going I then go to my 11 & 12 or 21 or 22 personnel formations.
 

Craig7835

Well-Known Member
@PSUEagle

Would consider the Ray Perkins offense that was used by Charlie Weis when he was at New England as the OC part of the Pro Style club or a different breed of cat type of offense?
 

NY_KIA31

New Member
@PSUEagle

Would consider the Ray Perkins offense that was used by Charlie Weis when he was at New England as the OC part of the Pro Style club or a different breed of cat type of offense?


The Erhardt-Perkins philosophy is designed to be a chameleon capable of morphing itself into anything based on personnel and that week's matchups. I would classify it as multiple with a capital "M"

That's why the Pats offense always seems to put up crazy number whether it is with a bunch of TEs and midget possession WRs, or whether you have Randy Moss, Wes Welker and a strong armed QB. They just build their concepts based on where their personnel strengths lay.

Charlie Weis's lunacy is that he tried to throw all of this multiplicity at college kids, and they couldn't handle it. One week Notre Dame would be playing almost exclusively shotgun 4-5 wide. The next week they'd be running Power Run-Playaction. It makes it difficult for opponents to prepare for it all, but also made it damn near impossible for Notre Dame to establish any kind of continuity. Cam Cameron does this, to a lesser extent, with LSU..and it drives me nuts everytime I see NFL guys do this. College players cant handle an 800 page playbook.

I friggen hate Charlie.. :)
 
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Craig7835

Well-Known Member
The Erhardt-Perkins philosophy is designed to be a chameleon capable of morphing itself into anything based on personnel and that week's matchups. I would classify it as multiple with a capital "M"

That's why the Pats offense always seems to put up crazy number whether it is with a bunch of TEs and midget possession WRs, or whether you have Randy Moss, Wes Welker and a strong armed QB. They just build their concepts based on where their personnel strengths lay.

Charlie Weis's lunacy is that he tried to throw all of this multiplicity at college kids, and they couldn't handle it. One week Notre Dame would be playing almost exclusively shotgun 4-5 wide. The next week they'd be running Power Run-Playaction. It makes it difficult for opponents to prepare for it all, but also made it damn near impossible for Notre Dame to establish any kind of continuity. Cam Cameron does this, to a lesser extent, with LSU..and it drives me nuts everytime I see NFL guys do this. College players cant handle an 800 page playbook.

I friggen hate Charlie.. :)

I agree with you about that last statement. I recall when Kyle Shanahan was the OC for Nebraska he was trying to have those kids cram all that WCO terminology from a 5 inch playbook. I've always was a fan of that Erhardt-Perkins offense,very methodical & hard to prepare for.LSU ran a little bit of last season & I think the Steelers,Carolina & New England ran it in the NFL. Weis' problem was he didn't have the right QB's to run his offense when he was OC at Florida & was head coach at Kansas.

Don't get me started talking about John Brantley..as Jim Ross would say By GAWD
 
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NY_KIA31

New Member
What I hated about Weis, is that at Notre Dame, they were CLEARLY at their best with Clausen pitching the ball around out SG Spread and Empty sets, to Golden Tate, Michael Floyd, Kyle Rudolph with Armando Allen being a poor man's De'Anthony Thomas type of back.

Then the next week, the A-Hole would scrap all of that andbe running I formation power, 35 times with Robert Hughes, as if he was goddamn Ladanian Tomlinson or something.
 

PSUEagle

Well-Known Member
@PSUEagle

Would consider the Ray Perkins offense that was used by Charlie Weis when he was at New England as the OC part of the Pro Style club or a different breed of cat type of offense?

I think we're at the point now in offensive football where distinctions like "Pro Style," "Spread," etc are becoming meaningless. For instance, watch a typical FSU game: they play upwards of ~70% of their snaps from the gun, with Winston rarely passing from under center (maybe three times a game or so).

To me, pro style is more about a coach's mentality of how he wants to attack a defense. Most spread guys today in college like to go uptempo and use that to simplify the game from a play calling standpoint. They run a limited number of concepts, attack specific areas, and change plays from the sidelines to get into the best situation(s) possible.

Pro style guys are more about letting their QB control the flow of the game and let him make the changes. Watch Winston play in college and you'll see why many (including me) love him as an NFL QB prospect based on tape alone. He frequently changes protections, changes run plays at the LOS, audibles to different pass concepts based on pressure, makes full field reads, etc. I'm biased, but I prefer this approach because it's a lot easier for an opposing DC on the sideline to change his call when coaches on the sideline signal adjustments than when a QB does it on the field.

@NY_KIA31

Welcome. Out of curiosity, what happened to all of those guys that used to play this series on PS3? Did they go to OS or something? Just curious.

My favorite Weiss offense by far was his first year in 2005. They were very multiple and did a lot formationally. As he started bringing in his own kids, though, they seemed to become a lot more stagnant. In Clausen's last year they were basically an 11 personnel gun team that lined up in Doubles or Trips most of the time and chucked it around non-stop.

That also reminds me of a conversation I had a couple years ago with one of my coaching buddies who is a huge Notre Dame fan. We both felt the Irish would be better off running a Stanford/Boston College/Minnesota type power running scheme based on the types of players they seem to attract. Yeah they've had some studs at WR like Michael Floyd, but ND seems to crap out big OL and TE's every single year while generally lacking players as dynamic on the perimeter, possibly due to their admissions requirements (like Stanford).

So with that said, what kind of system will Mike Sanford be putting in? If it's a best of both worlds kind of deal (Stanford's heavy stuff combined with Kelly's excellent empty package) it could be pretty fricking good if they stay healthy, IMO.
 

Craig7835

Well-Known Member
@PSUEagle

Yeah that Notre Dame squad in 2005 was on fire with that offense but Weis started smelling his shit WAAAAAAY too much afterwards & it went downhill from there. I've noticed that the Dallas Cowboys ran the Ernhardt Perkins Offense last season but Jason Garrett put some twists to it
 

NY_KIA31

New Member
I think we're at the point now in offensive football where distinctions like "Pro Style," "Spread," etc are becoming meaningless. For instance, watch a typical FSU game: they play upwards of ~70% of their snaps from the gun, with Winston rarely passing from under center (maybe three times a game or so).

To me, pro style is more about a coach's mentality of how he wants to attack a defense. Most spread guys today in college like to go uptempo and use that to simplify the game from a play calling standpoint. They run a limited number of concepts, attack specific areas, and change plays from the sidelines to get into the best situation(s) possible.

Pro style guys are more about letting their QB control the flow of the game and let him make the changes. Watch Winston play in college and you'll see why many (including me) love him as an NFL QB prospect based on tape alone. He frequently changes protections, changes run plays at the LOS, audibles to different pass concepts based on pressure, makes full field reads, etc. I'm biased, but I prefer this approach because it's a lot easier for an opposing DC on the sideline to change his call when coaches on the sideline signal adjustments than when a QB does it on the field.

@NY_KIA31

Welcome. Out of curiosity, what happened to all of those guys that used to play this series on PS3? Did they go to OS or something? Just curious.

My favorite Weiss offense by far was his first year in 2005. They were very multiple and did a lot formationally. As he started bringing in his own kids, though, they seemed to become a lot more stagnant. In Clausen's last year they were basically an 11 personnel gun team that lined up in Doubles or Trips most of the time and chucked it around non-stop.

That also reminds me of a conversation I had a couple years ago with one of my coaching buddies who is a huge Notre Dame fan. We both felt the Irish would be better off running a Stanford/Boston College/Minnesota type power running scheme based on the types of players they seem to attract. Yeah they've had some studs at WR like Michael Floyd, but ND seems to crap out big OL and TE's every single year while generally lacking players as dynamic on the perimeter, possibly due to their admissions requirements (like Stanford).

So with that said, what kind of system will Mike Sanford be putting in? If it's a best of both worlds kind of deal (Stanford's heavy stuff combined with Kelly's excellent empty package) it could be pretty fricking good if they stay healthy, IMO.

Conceptually, Weis still enjoys a very good reputation in the NFL ranks, and to be fair...Quinn and Clausen played very well statistically in his system. The problem was the maddening identities week to week. They never hung their hats on a core identity and got really good at it.

BK has gotten A LOT of quality WR, HB and QB prospects in during the last 2 years...the admins have chilled out a bit and given him some rope, but to an extent I agree with you. Kelly has dailed his tempo, 5 wide-empty spread ways, way back. They are essentially a "Pro-Style" zone run and PA spread team that often comes out in 11 or 12 personnel out of the Gun and Pistol, that huddles more often than they dont.

Part of that is he's never had a QB that he could trust completely..Everett was getting there until he began to implode with all of these turnovers, and he did what good coaches do: change, rather than lose doing things the way he's always done it. He recognized that he has a recruiting pipeline for lots of linemen, lots of TEs (an almost endless supply..he's nabbed a top 5 prospect 3-4 years running. Some inevitably transfer) and backs.

I do believe in his heart he wants to let it rip more, run those vertical stems, and run more zone read (Everett was AWFUL at the read option game), but he again..being a excellent coach...he's not too proud to alter his system.
 

NY_KIA31

New Member
Ive been pretty much obsessed with all things Sean Payton, Norv Turner & Mike Martz lately.

I put together a 99 Rams Playbooks in M15, but good luck getting under center I form power to give you anything other than 2 yards :(
 

PSUEagle

Well-Known Member
@NY_KIA31

Here's my current Martz/Payton hybrid: http://www.simsports.net/viewPlaybook.php?pbid=3186&gid=2

Biggest thing I do passing game wise to replicate is a lot of deep clear out stuff with shallow crosses used to control the underneath defenders/attack the opposite flat into the boundary.

I can't bring myself to make a classic Martz PB: don't want to stay under center ~90% of my snaps anymore (ironic, I know).

BTW, the Madden CPB feature is still an abortion with that stupid rating system no one likes, right? Last version I played was with Peyton Hillis on the cover, and I'm assuming that not much has changed. NCAA's feature is still far superior, correct?
 

NY_KIA31

New Member
@NY_KIA31

Here's my current Martz/Payton hybrid: http://www.simsports.net/viewPlaybook.php?pbid=3186&gid=2

Biggest thing I do passing game wise to replicate is a lot of deep clear out stuff with shallow crosses used to control the underneath defenders/attack the opposite flat into the boundary.

I can't bring myself to make a classic Martz PB: don't want to stay under center ~90% of my snaps anymore (ironic, I know).

BTW, the Madden CPB feature is still an abortion with that stupid rating system no one likes, right? Last version I played was with Peyton Hillis on the cover, and I'm assuming that not much has changed. NCAA's feature is still far superior, correct?


Yes. I dont know why they just dont ape NCAA's CPB interface and be done with it.

Your PB is very similar conceptually to what I put together.
 

Craig7835

Well-Known Member
Conceptually, Weis still enjoys a very good reputation in the NFL ranks, and to be fair...Quinn and Clausen played very well statistically in his system. The problem was the maddening identities week to week. They never hung their hats on a core identity and got really good at it.

BK has gotten A LOT of quality WR, HB and QB prospects in during the last 2 years...the admins have chilled out a bit and given him some rope, but to an extent I agree with you. Kelly has dailed his tempo, 5 wide-empty spread ways, way back. They are essentially a "Pro-Style" zone run and PA spread team that often comes out in 11 or 12 personnel out of the Gun and Pistol, that huddles more often than they dont.

Part of that is he's never had a QB that he could trust completely..Everett was getting there until he began to implode with all of these turnovers, and he did what good coaches do: change, rather than lose doing things the way he's always done it. He recognized that he has a recruiting pipeline for lots of linemen, lots of TEs (an almost endless supply..he's nabbed a top 5 prospect 3-4 years running. Some inevitably transfer) and backs.

I do believe in his heart he wants to let it rip more, run those vertical stems, and run more zone read (Everett was AWFUL at the read option game), but he again..being a excellent coach...he's not too proud to alter his system.

Didn't Kelly run an Air Raid type offense at Central Michigan & Cincinnati?
 

NY_KIA31

New Member
Here's a good article comparing and contrasting BK's early spread offenses to how he has evolved at Notre Dame.

Basically he's said "Cool..I can recruit mammoth OLs, and 6'6" athletic TEs here..I dont have to run around with all of these little guys, spread out all over the place anymore. I can get big dudes who can punch people in the face and guys outside who can create size mismatches..and still keep all of that empty and 4 WR stuff in my back pocket."


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ense-is-different-from-his-cincinnati-offense
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
Here's a good article comparing and contrasting BK's early spread offenses to how he has evolved at Notre Dame.

Basically he's said "Cool..I can recruit mammoth OLs, and 6'6" athletic TEs here..I dont have to run around with all of these little guys, spread out all over the place anymore. I can get big dudes who can punch people in the face and guys outside who can create size mismatches..and still keep all of that empty and 4 WR stuff in my back pocket."


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ense-is-different-from-his-cincinnati-offense

Man I love TE's once I found out how to use them. I can't run my offense without at least one recieving TE. They are a matchup nightmare.
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
@NY_KIA31

Here's my current Martz/Payton hybrid: http://www.simsports.net/viewPlaybook.php?pbid=3186&gid=2

Biggest thing I do passing game wise to replicate is a lot of deep clear out stuff with shallow crosses used to control the underneath defenders/attack the opposite flat into the boundary.

I can't bring myself to make a classic Martz PB: don't want to stay under center ~90% of my snaps anymore (ironic, I know).

BTW, the Madden CPB feature is still an abortion with that stupid rating system no one likes, right? Last version I played was with Peyton Hillis on the cover, and I'm assuming that not much has changed. NCAA's feature is still far superior, correct?


Does this work against max coverage defense where they rush less then 2-3? I seem to be the only player who still has issues with that kind of defense.:emo:
 

Craig7835

Well-Known Member
I'm trying to find clips of the UC Davis Pro Style in action. From what I've been reading,they were racking up yards & points
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
@PSUEagle I've been trying to run a west coast style ball control passing game in madden 15 and been struggling. My main goal is to run the football. So my whole focus is getting the defense out of single high coverage. I just got a ps4 so its a lot differen't. On ps3 I would use to just high low people defense to death with a mix of shallow cross and texas type concepts. Basically going 3 on 2 against the inside backers. However, on ps4 I have problems with the shallow cross mainly because I can't turn up the dam field:emo:. I catch the ball going horizontally and I can't get my player moving vertically until he's about to run into another defender across the field. Also linebacker do this bait move where they jump the the shallows then go back to dig alot(but that is a lesser issue).

I have tried to find more spacing routes to go 5 on 4 underneath but there are just not that many in the playbook.

I've been trying use this concept


Of course, what I really recommend are progression reads where the coverage keys what progression is used. It’s possible to have progressions with all five receivers in the progression, but it’s not likely or common for the quarterback to hit number four or five in the progression. Instead it makes more sense to give him multiple 1-2-3 reads, either keying off the movement of a particular defender or reading the general coverage structure.
The all-curl play provides a good example of a progression keyed off a specific defender. The base idea of the read is that #1 is the middle curl or sit route by the tight-end or inside receiver; #2 is the curl receiver; and #3 is the flat. The idea is to hit the tight-end early until the linebackers squeeze him, then to throw the curl if the flat defender widens to take away the flat.
The Mike or middle linebacker (“M”) is the key defender. If he drops straight back or weak, the quarterback should have sufficient numbers to the playside (Y, Z and F against the Sam linebacker (“S”) and the strong safety (“$”)). But if he drops to the Y side, the better read is Y to X to H against the weakside or Will linebacker (“W”). You can apply this same principal to reading the weakside safety, depending on the pass concept.

Most route in the game don't have 5 under concepts and even if you try to hot route a guy it can get crowded since that not the play design. I was thinking of using this concept in a way like" Unless the weak inside backer(in this case the Mike) is moving towards the strong side then you should have numbers to attack.

So even if the weaks side is post or vertical instead of shorter route I still should have numbers advantage. Is this sound?

How do you attack single high defenses (more specifically cover3)?
 
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PSUEagle

Well-Known Member
How do you attack single high defenses (more specifically cover3)?

Do you primarily use 21 or 12 personnel? I used to be a big 21 guy four or five years ago, but I've gradually moved towards 12 and 11 as my two primary groups.

Regardless, my absolute favorite way of attacking Cover 3 is using variations of the Dagger concept.

Dagger3.png


That's one of the traditional ways of running it, but what I've done in NCAA 13/14 (haven't played Madden in years, although I'll probably buy the PS4 version when it comes out) is recreate the concept with the #1 (widest outside) receiver running some kind of post, preferably where he stems inside initially (unbumpable vs. man coverage). I'll do it from both dropback and PA, but I've found that PA is ridiculously consistent for me (I probably average 85% completion for at least 20 yards a pop). Really, all I need for this concept to work is a play where the #1 WR to one side runs a stem post while the #1 to the other runs a stem dig. So think plays like "PA WR In" from I Form as an example.

Basic "rules" and how I run it:

3X1

#1: Post
#2: Flat
#3: Go

Backside I always have a Dig route of some sort that will get in my vision should the post not be open. If I'm in empty, I put #2 on the weakside on a drag.

2X2

#1: Post
#2: Go
#3: Swing

Backside I block my TE (if it's 11 or 12 people). If it's a WR, I drag him like empty so that he comes open before the dig.

2X1

#1: Post
#2 Go
#3 Flat

Regardless of how I line up, I read it top down. First look is always to peak the Go route as an alert: while I rarely throw to him, there are occasions where a user plays unsound defense and he's open.

My second look is the post route. What I've found is that play action from under center will help suck up the underneath coverage linebackers and create a huge void for him to come open against either Cover 3 or 4. Hell, even if there's no play action he's usually open because hook zones usually stop covering people after about 12-14 yards or so. The idea is to hit him a couple of steps once he breaks to the post, a lot like the old Rams Martz teams use to do when throwing the deep dig off a speed cut.

Third look is the dig. As you scan your eyes to the post, if he's covered it's likely that a middle hook zone defender managed to get great depth. If that's the case, the dig should come open into that void.

Last look is the checkdown, whether it's a drag or the flat route (usually throw this when someone plays really soft Cover 4 and basically concedes that area of the field).

The main idea of this concept is to run off the FS with the Go route by a slot receiver: that will prevent him from driving on the post that the CB will usually pass off. From there, it's almost like a pyramid style read, working from the top (post) to the middle (dig) to down underneath.

Now, if Madden's actually improved their zone logic significantly than you may have to tweak this concept a little bit.`One way to do that is to line up in either a 3X1 set of some kind or 2X1 two back: in either case you want a WR/TE/FB to run an option route/hook to control the strongside hook/curl defender's drop. Odds are that guy will bite on said route most of the time, giving you a clear window to drill the post route for big yardage.

Offensively I run maybe ten total concepts in the passing game each time a new game comes out. Each year certain routes will be more effective than others: I tweak what I do based on that. For instance, in NCAA 12 short in routes were excellent against man: as a result I made Levels a staple of my offense. That hasn't been true recently, so I run more Smash (great vs man to man and easy to read period) as an example. The bottom line though is that I won't run a play/concept if I don't have a defined answer for man coverage and pressure defenses.
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
Do you primarily use 21 or 12 personnel? I used to be a big 21 guy four or five years ago, but I've gradually moved towards 12 and 11 as my two primary groups.

Regardless, my absolute favorite way of attacking Cover 3 is using variations of the Dagger concept.

Dagger3.png


That's one of the traditional ways of running it, but what I've done in NCAA 13/14 (haven't played Madden in years, although I'll probably buy the PS4 version when it comes out) is recreate the concept with the #1 (widest outside) receiver running some kind of post, preferably where he stems inside initially (unbumpable vs. man coverage). I'll do it from both dropback and PA, but I've found that PA is ridiculously consistent for me (I probably average 85% completion for at least 20 yards a pop). Really, all I need for this concept to work is a play where the #1 WR to one side runs a stem post while the #1 to the other runs a stem dig. So think plays like "PA WR In" from I Form as an example.

Basic "rules" and how I run it:

3X1

#1: Post
#2: Flat
#3: Go

Backside I always have a Dig route of some sort that will get in my vision should the post not be open. If I'm in empty, I put #2 on the weakside on a drag.

2X2

#1: Post
#2: Go
#3: Swing

Backside I block my TE (if it's 11 or 12 people). If it's a WR, I drag him like empty so that he comes open before the dig.

2X1

#1: Post
#2 Go
#3 Flat

Regardless of how I line up, I read it top down. First look is always to peak the Go route as an alert: while I rarely throw to him, there are occasions where a user plays unsound defense and he's open.

My second look is the post route. What I've found is that play action from under center will help suck up the underneath coverage linebackers and create a huge void for him to come open against either Cover 3 or 4. Hell, even if there's no play action he's usually open because hook zones usually stop covering people after about 12-14 yards or so. The idea is to hit him a couple of steps once he breaks to the post, a lot like the old Rams Martz teams use to do when throwing the deep dig off a speed cut.

Third look is the dig. As you scan your eyes to the post, if he's covered it's likely that a middle hook zone defender managed to get great depth. If that's the case, the dig should come open into that void.

Last look is the checkdown, whether it's a drag or the flat route (usually throw this when someone plays really soft Cover 4 and basically concedes that area of the field).

The main idea of this concept is to run off the FS with the Go route by a slot receiver: that will prevent him from driving on the post that the CB will usually pass off. From there, it's almost like a pyramid style read, working from the top (post) to the middle (dig) to down underneath.

Now, if Madden's actually improved their zone logic significantly than you may have to tweak this concept a little bit.`One way to do that is to line up in either a 3X1 set of some kind or 2X1 two back: in either case you want a WR/TE/FB to run an option route/hook to control the strongside hook/curl defender's drop. Odds are that guy will bite on said route most of the time, giving you a clear window to drill the post route for big yardage.

Offensively I run maybe ten total concepts in the passing game each time a new game comes out. Each year certain routes will be more effective than others: I tweak what I do based on that. For instance, in NCAA 12 short in routes were excellent against man: as a result I made Levels a staple of my offense. That hasn't been true recently, so I run more Smash (great vs man to man and easy to read period) as an example. The bottom line though is that I won't run a play/concept if I don't have a defined answer for man coverage and pressure defenses.


I seems like you run similar concepts as me. I am also 12(my preferred personnel group), and 11 personnel. I never had an issue with cover3 in ncaa double because of I used similar concepts and was able to high low internal linebackers and get run after the catch to go up and down the field getting at least 4- yards and more on pa plays like you have suggested.

However madden has been different the movement in the game is totally different I feel like you the players are less in your control or have a lot of weight to them. I'm not neccessrally knocking it but its totally different from last gen. As I said if they give you the shallow and and you take it, your ability to get yards after the catch is really limited, or at least mine are. I will catch the ball 3 yrds infront of the line of scrimage and get stopped a lot for 3 yards(because it hard to immediately turn up the field). In Ncaa its not like that at all.

The reason why I tagged you is because I think you messaged me as a friend request the other day so I assumed u had ps4 madden. Maybe it wasn't you or you just did it from ps3.
 

PSUEagle

Well-Known Member
The reason why I tagged you is because I think you messaged me as a friend request the other day so I assumed u had ps4 madden. Maybe it wasn't you or you just did it from ps3.

I did and I do.

TBH my biggest issue so far is learning the controls: I'm used to using the xbox ones for 8+ years. Early thoughts are that Bunch/Snug sets will be even more annoying to defend than usual.

BTW, the custom playbook feature is really pissing me off: how do you not have a menu to order plays like NCAA? And how do you even order plays in the sets consistently: a lot of times it seems like they go wherever they want. Just absolute laziness and incompetence from EA. Good thing we have GAME CHANGERS to help QA that for free. Oh wait, I forgot that they're more interested in having authentic gloves and cleats.
 

PSUEagle

Well-Known Member
@JSU Zack

Trust me, that concept I've described is basically impossible to defend in NCAA. You've got two umbumpable press man beaters (the stem post and stem dig), receivers attacking every level of the field, and a built in hot if you're confused (flat). I run it from at least ten different formations.

It's the biggest reason I'm still 50% under center: as much as the gun run game is more effective, I find that play action along with quick game like Stick are easier/better from under.

Ask @bruin228: a lot of times he knows when that play is coming and still can't stop it.
 
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